live 2/2 omaha spot

[SuuPRlim]

FOLD PRE? I i'd take a knife to my kidneys before folding this pre, In fact I'd be having serious thoughts about squeezing pre-flop to try clean some of our equity up - however in live games this is pretty ambitious and people dont 3bet as often as I'd like them too spesh vs UTG open from a tightish player so I'd expect there to prolly be some decent dominating run-downs out and about which obv aren't going to fold to our squeeze. I'd never fold this hand though, this is a very good hand, admittedly loses a lot of it's value multi-way but still, very good.

@Bobalike - well you're certainly right but if our villain has a strong enough non-56 hand to pot the flop with here then he's very unlikely to fold it OTT - we're basically talking set+nfd there. If he has a weaker 56 combo than ours (which I think he will have a decent% of the time) then he'll never fold on a bricked turn, whereas there IS a chance he'll fold on the flop, he might have  and fold the flop? every time he does that we make a lot of money (I'm suggesting he will all that often btw, but often enough for it to be relevant)

Also, we're only about 15% behind the 56 with NFD, and we'll lose the pot about 25% of the time, we really don't need to give him too many weaker 56's and folds and we're making an extremely profitable play. Basically I think if we decide to continue then we need take the flop line that gets the MOST folds because that is where we're really making our $$$.

All we have is that this guy is tight+competent and for my money that's not enough reason to lay hands like this down.

No1 would ever fold this hand to me here I know that much

[SuuPRlim]

is this @dtd btw, naming the villain would be pretty useful if its possible, I have a inkling who it is I think.

[mulhuzz]

DAve, imagine we have XXXX not the hand we have.

Are you always considering this a push/fold spot?

Are there any hands you're calling? Any you're raising but not pot/calling?

If so, solve for XXXX

[SuuPRlim]

erm, hard to say, gonna go with no it prolly isn't...but depends on a few things

I don't really think push/fold spots exist in deep-stacked PLO, that's more of a NLHE tournament thing IMO, it's much more complex with the deeper stacks and your own reads can dominate the mathematics a lot harder here than say in a 30bb tourney spot where no matter how hard the guy's eye is twitching certain hands will always be an immediately profitable push and there is no room to call.

One thing I will say about this spot though is that whatever "XXXX" is it needs to be pretty fkn good, we're dealing with very strong ranges here, the straddler certainly won'tbe picking this spot to randomly lead nothing, actually the last hand i'd expect him to lead here would be naked 56, I think NFD/sets stuff that can prolly take a bit of heat, or he might just be taking a stab with a hand like JJ66with spades. The IR who has potted just always has a good hand I don't think that is up for debate.

Me personally I'd pot A78 with NFD here, infact any NFD with a blocker or a gutshot or a pair because I think you'll get a lot of folds and people will fold ridiculously tight here and when they don't oh well 30-35% whatyagonnado (but get there) and you really don't need that many folds to make decent money here. So most of the time OTF if I decide to continue I'd be wanting folds - which would make it kinda push-fold (do I have a. enough fold equity, and b. enough equity when called and if the answer is yes to those then pot, fold if not)

However as super exploitative as this is if i had a hand like 56 with the NFD, or even better 567A with NFD then I'd defo just flat (lol) because I think the general population would lean towards a tighter fold than a lighter stack off here.

Interesting hand here would be A44* with NFD, it's a madatory ship OTF imo, and most people would just call which is very bad, you're ahead of nearly every combo of 56 (so happy to get it in) and some 56 combo's will fold (even better) so you'd be burning money by flatting and letting a weak 56 realise his equity on the turn (by this I mean hit a brick and not be a favorite)

[mulhuzz]

thoughts on flatting A445 with (nut) spades?

[bobAlike]

Thanks Dave, IRL I raise this flop with this hand but I know loads of people who would fold and I could never persuade them that it's the right thing to do. Would you play any different with 5 or 6 cards with similar holdings?

[tikay]

Really relieved to see LilDave's reply, I was starting to doubt myself!

Even me, King Nit, ain't ever even considering folding here.

And I don't expect to be shown the same hand, but with improvers, very often. Mostly I expect to see two pair, a set, a worse straight, or NFD. I don't know how to "stove" & I'm not so good with equities & percentages, but I like my hand way too much here.

I suppose the real test, for me, were if it were the first hand of a WSOP Event, I might bottle it, but only because I was playing scared. I'd hate myself, but would find the fold I suppose.

[SuuPRlim]

thoughts on flatting A445 with (nut) spades?

Don't like it with NFD because of reasons in above post, FE vs the current nuts and an equity advantage when the money goes in, literally no good reason not to pile the money in.

Flatting in these spots has 3 benefits - 1) you can open you range up to include a wider variety of draws (for example it's a pretty stnd play in 4card when you have the nut striaght for example in a spot where it's pretty likely your opponent has it as well to call with the intention of bluffing him when flushes/pair ups come in) and therefore bluff similar/better hands on later streets. There is no such benefit here because every card that changes the board (exceot 6's and 7's) hits us and therefore could just kill our action.

2) to realise your equity without having to commit your whole stack - with the stack depths we're going to be AI on the turn anyways.

3) to keep weaker draws in - but with this action on the flop (donk, raaise, over-call) it's going to be seriously difficult for anyone to get involved with a Khigh FD or naked A2.

@Tikay - yh would be a bit diff in the first level of a WSOP event, because no1 would raise naked 56 for "protection" no1 would be taking off with the NFD ever even with blockers, so we'd be vs a seriously magnum range with this action/stacks.

[GreekStein]

Yup I'm very happily getting it in here

[jk1892]

is this @dtd btw, naming the villain would be pretty useful if its possible, I have a inkling who it is I think.

No it was at Didsbury this week during the gukpt. His name is Paul, hes black and wears funky clothes. Plays the circuit abit I think alot of people seem to know him.

[Eso Kral]

is this @dtd btw, naming the villain would be pretty useful if its possible, I have a inkling who it is I think.

No it was at Didsbury this week during the gukpt. His name is Paul, hes black and wears funky clothes. Plays the circuit abit I think alot of people seem to know him.

Paul Parker then.

[Honeybadger]

If it is Paul Parker then I can understand why you might want to fold lol!

[jk1892]

Just to clarify I didn't fold. I got it in rather quickly, we agreed to run it twice and I got 1/4 back. He had 567sJs so was pretty sick. Just wanted to see if it is ever right to fold knowing this player is almost certainly getting it in and with the straddle behind as well only playing <600

[SuuPRlim]

if he's opening J765sing UTG in the FR pokers then I'd be getting it in vs him OTF, cos the sort of playeer who'd open that UTG wont generally just need the uber-mega hand to get his stack in here (sweeping generalization from me I understand but "generally speaking" I think that's pretty accurate)

or as Cos said in 1200 words less than me.

Yup I'm very happily getting it in here

[jk1892]

if he's opening J765sing UTG in the FR pokers then I'd be getting it in vs him OTF, cos the sort of playeer who'd open that UTG wont generally just need the uber-mega hand to get his stack in here (sweeping generalization from me I understand but "generally speaking" I think that's pretty accurate)

or as Cos said in 1200 words less than me.

Yup I'm very happily getting it in here

He didn't open, he flatted in late position. The UTG raiser folded the flop, op says this maybe I didn't make it clear. But yeah his hand shound never really see a flop.