Interesting Omaha hand.

[SuuPRlim]

This is a pretty interesting hand, I dont really rate my play but it might be fun to discus from either side

My oponent in this hand is a very good reg, and me and him have a LOT of very aggressive history, we've played a load of pretty spazzy pots against each other at all stakes.

He'll defo stack off in shallow pots pretty light against me, he's really stubborn (good stubborn, difficult to win pots from him) and he's also pretty tricky.

***** Hand History for Game 4822919331 ***** (IPoker)
$400.00 USD PL Omaha - Monday, May 20, 06:32:58 ET 2013
Table Helve (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: FraserTeamTitan ( $1448.00 USD )
Seat 3: LILLIGRUBER ( $400.00 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $951.00 USD )
Seat 8: Privko ( $400.00 USD )
Seat 10: LeCordonnier ( $408.00 USD )
LeCordonnier posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
FraserTeamTitan posts big blind [$4.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [  ]
LILLIGRUBER folds
HERO raises [$12.00 USD]
Privko raises [$42.00 USD]
LeCordonnier folds
FraserTeamTitan folds
HERO raises [$120.00 USD]
Privko calls [$90.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
HERO checks
Privko checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
HERO bets [$270.00 USD]
Privko calls [$268.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
HERO wins $805.00 USD from main pot
Privko shows [, ]


What do you all think. ? .

[wazz]

Think I'd rather cbet the flop than not, but I'm definitely betting the turn as played; don't think it has to be all-in, think $80-100 works well, but depends if you think you can get him off two pair with that sizing which you probably can't, but can you get him off two pair with a jam?

[mulhuzz]

if our read is that he's stubborn/hard to make fold, why are we bluffing him? is it because we ping an Ace to win a lot?

think I prefer to bet/fold flop, or even just c/f if we think he's gonna jam a lot -- but that ofc makes our 9-bet (or whatever it was ) pre pretty exploitable, esp if you have history.

ofc once he checks back turn I 100% understand why you *want* to bet the turn, but if he's not folding (and we would 100% be betting spades on this board, so rep exactly zero combos of spades imo, esp if villain is aware of his image as notfoldy. If it isn't exactly zero, let's call it close to that (maybe you check back some of the smaller ones to bluff-catch or something) and in any event, we've put the 4th bet in and then not bet a flop which is decent for our perceived 4b-range (but likely hits his 4bc range quite decent with like J9Tx etc) so I think any further bets we make are going to be really, really polarised to like top set and spades AJ9T with nut spades etc and the rest of the stuff we might 4bet with history like 5678 and the hand we have.

Imagine you have AAKT/9 here, you're definitely going to bet the flop and (given history) not do many folds - meh, my point is that I dont possibly see how your flop check can be balanced - and ofc it can be ok to be unbalanced in some spots, I don't think this hand vs this villain (tricky reg) is one of them.

[SuuPRlim]

@Mullhuzz - I think you've missed how shallow the pot is OTF.

I was defo chk/folding the flop, I think it's really the only play given how hard the board hits his range, and how correctly he's going to stack off, combined with just how poor my hand is, put the there I'd id probably just jam the flop (we have exactly 1 psb bet behind) as I think then I JUST have enough equity when called to only need a minute amount of folds from him to profit from it. It obviously sucks a bit either way.

As for my flop checking range, if I'm going to be chk/folding ever then I MUST have a chk/call range (assuming that any bet either of us make on this flop will be AI) otherwise he can jam 100% when checked to and i'll fold every time, realistically given how often i'll have connected to this board often enough to be happy to go all in I don't actually need many chk/calls to balance it out, so which are the best hands to balance by checking with the intention of calling? I think any hand that doesnt hate it being checked back (could still happily jam any turn) would make for a good hand to do this with, top pair or and OP with spades I think are the best hands to do this with.

As it's played he's obviously assumed that I am not balanced OTF and would have no value range that checks, hence why he's snapped off with KK. If he does think that then surely jus jamming the flop with everything is the best play, even KK which if his assumption is correct will 100% be the best hand as it denies me realising my equity, I think there's a checne what's happened is he DID believe my flop chk range included huge hands, but didn't think I would use ALL-IN as my turn sizing with them. So I agree with wazz I think $86 and jam the river is the best play, if I've balanced my flop check/folds by intending to chk/call some magnum hands, puts him in a much tougher spot i think, speshly given how weak his range is on the turn - 1Pair is the very best hand he can have (aside from 666 lol) OTT so really jamming looks exactly like I'm trying to make him fold, which is what I was doing.

This would make my flop checking range in itself quite polarised, as in im chk/folding on the times I've missed and chking to trap/call with my very best hands, does this leave him a really easy $86/fold or call with his entire range OTF? Is just $86/call or fold from me with my entire range the way to go - or is there any merit to just Jamming my whole range OTF?

It's very difficult to work with correct frquencies in spots likee this where you're so controlled by what your cards are, as in a loan 8 or Q HAS to jam, naked AA really has to Jam, so the best checking hands really are Qxxx spades and AA/KK with spades.

Also @Mull we still have to bluff stubborn people you know

[mulhuzz]

@Mullhuzz - I think you've missed how shallow the pot is OTF.

I was defo chk/folding the flop, I think it's really the only play given how hard the board hits his range, and how correctly he's going to stack off, combined with just how poor my hand is, put the there I'd id probably just jam the flop (we have exactly 1 psb bet behind) as I think then I JUST have enough equity when called to only need a minute amount of folds from him to profit from it. It obviously sucks a bit either way.

As for my flop checking range, if I'm going to be chk/folding ever then I MUST have a chk/call range (assuming that any bet either of us make on this flop will be AI) otherwise he can jam 100% when checked to and i'll fold every time, realistically given how often i'll have connected to this board often enough to be happy to go all in I don't actually need many chk/calls to balance it out, so which are the best hands to balance by checking with the intention of calling? I think any hand that doesnt hate it being checked back (could still happily jam any turn) would make for a good hand to do this with, top pair or and OP with spades I think are the best hands to do this with.

As it's played he's obviously assumed that I am not balanced OTF and would have no value range that checks, hence why he's snapped off with KK. If he does think that then surely jus jamming the flop with everything is the best play, even KK which if his assumption is correct will 100% be the best hand as it denies me realising my equity, I think there's a checne what's happened is he DID believe my flop chk range included huge hands, but didn't think I would use ALL-IN as my turn sizing with them. So I agree with wazz I think $86 and jam the river is the best play, if I've balanced my flop check/folds by intending to chk/call some magnum hands, puts him in a much tougher spot i think, speshly given how weak his range is on the turn - 1Pair is the very best hand he can have (aside from 666 lol) OTT so really jamming looks exactly like I'm trying to make him fold, which is what I was doing.

This would make my flop checking range in itself quite polarised, as in im chk/folding on the times I've missed and chking to trap/call with my very best hands, does this leave him a really easy $86/fold or call with his entire range OTF? Is just $86/call or fold from me with my entire range the way to go - or is there any merit to just Jamming my whole range OTF?

It's very difficult to work with correct frquencies in spots likee this where you're so controlled by what your cards are, as in a loan 8 or Q HAS to jam, naked AA really has to Jam, so the best checking hands really are Qxxx spades and AA/KK with spades.

Also @Mull we still have to bluff stubborn people you know

ha - yeah, I have -- I saw you had like $900 and just went 'well, must be the effective stack' sure was.

great post though - made me completely rethink the hand. I struggle with assigning correct tendancies or 'playing perfectly' vs good regs, so this is a good place to start.

[SuuPRlim]

i think one of the big mistakes people make is to instantly jump to "default" conclusions, like "He'd never chk spades OTF" or "He'd always raise JJ** on J75dd", against good players I think its really important to consider (bearing their perception of you + their own style in mind) the different ways they'd play every part of their range, and most range aware/thinking players will be looking for the most deceptive ways to play each part of their range.

[Patonius2000]

We need (270/805) 33% to break even on a flop shove.



ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.22 Professional)
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Qs8h3s
PLAYER_1 AdTdKh9c
PLAYER_2 12%!AA
600000 trials (randomized)


All-in Equity

[table=head]|Equity %|Wins Hi %|Ties Hi %|Wins Hi Count|Ties Hi Count|
AdTdKh9c|28.7394%|25.3448%|6.7892%|152069|40735|
12%!AA|71.2606%|67.8660%|6.7892%|407196|40735|
[/table]

- Jamming flop loses us money assuming no fold equity.

This is quite an unusual hand in that when we 4b and get flatted 100bb deep we are very rarely left with a decision with what to do on Qs8h3s. I see some people advocating betting flop small and balancing that with some uber nuts hands. Lets look at b/f $80;

Betting 80 when he jams we are now calling off 190/805 (23%). Essentially we are betting an amount to commit us with our average equity vs his range (28%) but then making a huge mistake by folding. Of the two plays jamming is better because we still realise out 28%, even though both have a negative expectation.

So yeah, check and then fold. You are exploiting every single mid stakes reg who has ever 3b light by check folding the nut low part of your range and just going allin with everything else. Balance is great but this a pretty great spot to be unbalanced imo.

As for the turn spot, if he jams any piece on the flop you have a profitable shove.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.22 Professional)
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Qs8h3s6s
PLAYER_1 AdTdKh9c
PLAYER_2 12%!AA!JT9!(T9,JT,J9)!ss!((Q8,Q3,Q6,83,86,36)!(QQ,88,33,66))!(QQ,88,33,66)!((Q,8,3,6)!(QQ,88,33,66,Q8,Q3,Q6,83,86,36))
50960 trials (exhaustive)


All-in Equity


Doesn't necessarily mean jamming is the best play. The 'literally any piece' is quite subjective and it can certainly be marginally losing. Can't go too far wrong shovelling it in though.
If I took this line though I'd probably be checking again. I think we realise our equity more than you'd think given he knows he cant rep any flushes. It's kinda nice when it gets checked through too because we can pick which rivers we want to bluff and he can't hero us down with one pair 6's.

[CHIPPYMAN]

I think by checking the flop n betting the turn u r turning ur hands into a bluff . I would rather c/bet the flop n fold to a raised .

[pleno1]

think 2 posts above proves why b/f flop isnt great frankie.

[CHIPPYMAN]

think 2 posts above proves why b/f flop isnt great frankie.

Let the PLO expert do the talking & u stick with ur NLHE :-)

[SuuPRlim]

we have exactly 1 PSB left OTF.

Good Post Rob, thoughts on $86 turn/shove river over shove turn, can't see him jamming over turn bet and providing he can give me credit for chking OP/Q* w/spades OTF once in a while then he puts him in a tough spot with every (his range being almost exclusively 1pairs OTT)

Im glad that c/f has become clearly the best flop play, as that was my plan here