Aces vs Big Stack

[Tommy Bingham]

Generally what is the right play in this spot?

Live Deepstack Torney. Mid way through Day 1. Blinds 400/800. Average 60k. I am currently sitting with 120k.

UTG+1, (oldish guy, nitty) playing 70k. Open 1800.
CO (solid player, see's flops, from showdown doesn't three bet unless ++) playing 150k, flats. Only player on table that has me covered.
We look down in HJ, at and three bet to 5100.

Both call.



Check, Check. I make it 8200.
First guy calls and now solid player (CO) makes it 19000.

What do we do?

I flat to see brick turn / heart turn and re-evaluate.
Other player, folds.

Turn  
He makes 42k. We have like 90k+ behind.

Is this ever a jam?


(Edited Positions as got them initially wrong)

[Tommy Bingham]

Also,

Is my threebet pre, too small?

[SuuPRlim]

yh 3bet could be a little bigger over TWO players.

As played I think you should fold. You may have the best hand but will be dodging loads of cards, the 70k guy might have something slow-played, if he's got AK or doing something with a worse value hand then that's terrible and I think we cant really give him credit for a type bluff with no reads.

Just sigh and wait, deepstacked play you have to be able to just let this type of hand go cos small mistakes are massive in big pots.

[chatban]

Think the 3 bet pre is slightly too small considering the nitty guy is probably not raise/folding hardly anything of his range if as described.

Think this is a pretty easy but frustrating fold after the raise on the flop.

[Tommy Bingham]

yh 3bet could be a little bigger over TWO players.

As played I think you should fold. You may have the best hand but will be dodging loads of cards, the 70k guy might have something slow-played, if he's got AK or doing something with a worse value hand then that's terrible and I think we cant really give him credit for a type bluff with no reads.

Just sigh and wait, deepstacked play you have to be able to just let this type of hand go cos small mistakes are massive in big pots.

Same thinking.
With the , it covers so many decent combos,   , . Generally, wouldn't expect a solid decent player 3/4 to pot it on turn with   and below draws, as they can so easily be jammed on and structure is long?

Hands like KJ, K10, finding out where they are on the flop all check back turn to pot control? Way it was played, always feels like KQ or 22?

[PathFinder]

It does feel like a fold on the flop as its difficult to put villian on a value hand we beat and he doesn't have many semi bluffs either.

3bet pre to be a bit bigger as already mentioned. Only thing we could do different I guess is to just fold the flop in this instance. As played obviously fold the turn.

Just feels like sets and 2 pairs here.

[CHIPPYMAN]

yh 3bet could be a little bigger over TWO players.

As played I think you should fold. You may have the best hand but will be dodging loads of cards, the 70k guy might have something slow-played, if he's got AK or doing something with a worse value hand then that's terrible and I think we cant really give him credit for a type bluff with no reads.

Just sigh and wait, deepstacked play you have to be able to just let this type of hand go cos small mistakes are massive in big pots.

Bet sizzing on 3bet to small . It's a fold . Agreed 100000000# with Dave the great

[Tommy Bingham]

It does feel like a fold on the flop as its difficult to put villian on a value hand we beat and he doesn't have many semi bluffs either.

3bet pre to be a bit bigger as already mentioned. Only thing we could do different I guess is to just fold the flop in this instance. As played obviously fold the turn.

Just feels like sets and 2 pairs here.

Thankyou.would you not feel evaluting turn is the best line in these spots?

[SuuPRlim]

yh 3bet could be a little bigger over TWO players.

As played I think you should fold. You may have the best hand but will be dodging loads of cards, the 70k guy might have something slow-played, if he's got AK or doing something with a worse value hand then that's terrible and I think we cant really give him credit for a type bluff with no reads.

Just sigh and wait, deepstacked play you have to be able to just let this type of hand go cos small mistakes are massive in big pots.

Same thinking.
With the , it covers so many decent combos,   , . Generally, wouldn't expect a solid decent player 3/4 to pot it on turn with   and below draws, as they can so easily be jammed on and structure is long?

Hands like KJ, K10, finding out where they are on the flop all check back turn to pot control? Way it was played, always feels like KQ or 22?

I think he could play like this, bags of fold equity and tough for you to call down without KK or QQ. However if the hand you're scrapping about for him to have is then this isnt a good spot, as has a very real chance of beating you if the cards go on their backs! having the   blocks a lot of the best bluffing combos ( would be a cool hand to pick to bluff with here if he wanted to bluff for example) having the   not sure how relevant that is, as i don't think he'd raise   here as he'd be in a woeful spot if you were to 3bet the flop.

[SuuPRlim]

"evaluating the turn" is one of those blanket expressions people use when they have a hand they really don't want to fold but realise they are behind to a legit value range, what people actually mean is "call, and hope he checks the turn."

if he's capable of raising here light then he's also going to be capable of betting the right turn often enough to still leave you lost OTT, there is nothing whatsoever wrong, in deepstacked situations, in just folding a very strong part of your range in a bid to avoid difficult decisions on later streets - playing guessing games with deep stacks is very dangerous.

[wazz]

3bet pre is waaaaay too small. I would make it like 8-9k and still expect to get at least one call. I'm making it this big with my semibluffs too. People love seeing flops and doing crazy things, especially if they're getting a good price.

Postflop, folding your aces getting such a good price is soooo exploitable. But it's so much more exploitative and I think it rocks when you don't give people action with such a monster, when they obviously have you beat. Sure, he could be playing a draw like this, but we block some of those draws, and sure, he could be spazzing out and playing one pair like this and hoping to have a worse hand call and a better hand fold at the same time, but even adding those two possibilities together is a bit of a stretch and both hands have equity vs you.

As played I would still fold the turn as his occasional 1 pair spazout hands likely check back the turn.

[Tommy Bingham]

"evaluating the turn" is one of those blanket expressions people use when they have a hand they really don't want to fold but realise they are behind to a legit value range, what people actually mean is "call, and hope he checks the turn."

if he's capable of raising here light then he's also going to be capable of betting the right turn often enough to still leave you lost OTT, there is nothing whatsoever wrong, in deepstacked situations, in just folding a very strong part of your range in a bid to avoid difficult decisions on later streets - playing guessing games with deep stacks is very dangerous.

Thankyou.

[PathFinder]

The thing is we know he is betting the turn close to 100% after taking this Flop line and if another heart drops we still have to fold to his turn bet. The best possible cards on the turn is a deuce or an ace.

We are cbetting 2 opponents on a wet flop so our range looks strong yet villian who is deacribed as solid is still happy to check raise 2 players including the old nitty guy. Feels like villian only has: KQ/QQ/KK/22 and 10h. We have blockers for AA and AK.

It's not nice to fold aces on this flop but given action I believe it's the best play. Plus we are OOP on the turn so it's harder to evaluate.

I don't like the term evaluate either

[PathFinder]

Damn you dave getting in the "I hate evaluate" before me grrrrr

Much quicker at typing than me

[SuuPRlim]

Damn you dave getting in the "I hate evaluate" before me grrrrr

Much quicker at typing more time and an emptier life than me

haha