Run it twice - what, why, how?

[tikay]

Bear with me, but I don't have a grasp of when & why we should offer, or accept this, nor am I convinced that some of those who do it understand.

So, why do we do this, for what reason, & in what situations?

It arose, for me, in a Big O (5 card Omaha 8 or better) Cash Game a few days ago.

We were playing $1-$2, but it is a $5 bring-in, & the Button usually straddles for $10, so it plays bigger than $1 $2.

There was $125 in the middle pre-flop, I am playing $1,300 & cover most, & I had.....

  

And we see this flop......

 

I pot it, $125.

Shorty, playing $175, shoves. Everyone else folds, just 2 of us, & I call, obv.

Shorty now says - very politely, not an aggro sort - "wanna run it twice"?

What is the correct response, & why?

Confession - I was a little flustered & perplexed by the question, & so I just agreed. Not sure why, either it seemed the cool thing to do, or I was scared to admit I had no idea of the maths or logic. Best not be difficult, & all that. With hindsight, & upon reflection, I thought my decision was bad, & I should have declined.

FWIW, (not relevant to the qustion) I three quartered the kid, taking the "top" cleanly, & chopping the other.

Also, is there any etiquette to declining or accepting, when offered?

[Tal]

Just reduces variance, of course. Not sure why mateyboy would want to run it twice being so short. He is better off having one crack to scoop than very likely losing at least a quarter of the pot.


In the Aria millionaire game, I am led to believe that, if two of them get all of their money in pre and have the same hand (AA v AA or what have you), they just chop it there and then, rather than four-flushing for a million bucks and a lot of animosity.

[tikay]

PS - I understand it is to reduce variance, but how do we measure or define this? Should we want to do it only when we THINK we are in bad shape? Does being offered it suggest we are in good shape, & so should decline?

[Tal]

PS - I understand it is to reduce variance, but how do we measure or define this? Should we want to do it only when we THINK we are in bad shape? Does being offered it suggest we are in good shape, & so should decline?

Technically, if you're in better shape, the less variance the better, as you are more likely to show the right result the more times you play.

If you are 60% to win, you want to run it a billion times, rather than 10.

[George2Loose]

think if you play with people regularly you're more likely to run it twice and it doesn't matter what shape you're in. It's probably more to do with the size of the pot.

think you could've politely declined simply by saying "no thank you"

[tikay]

Just reduces variance, of course. Not sure why mateyboy would want to run it twice being so short. He is better off having one crack to scoop than very likely losing at least a quarter of the pot.


In the Aria millionaire game, I am led to believe that, if two of them get all of their money in pre and have the same hand (AA v AA or what have you), they just chop it there and then, rather than four-flushing for a million bucks and a lot of animosity.

Quite unrelated really, but I had another scenario which left myself, & the whole table, gasping for breath. We were heads up, I can't recall the betting, but both of us had plenty in front of us.

It was Big O again, the flop & turn were down, & no low was possible, & the board had not paired. There were three spades on show, & I had the K flush. The other kid almost implores me to chop there & then, so much so that I stupidly agreed. I agreed (don't ask, I don't know), & we chopped it. He then showed me his hand - Nut spades. He then left the table hurriedly, supposedly as his girlfriend was getting a bit revved up & wanted his attention.

Daftest thing ever. Both of us.   

[Honeybadger]

You should never run it twice in the Big O games over there. It is time charge rather than rake, and you get about 10 hands per hour as it is due to incompetent dealers not knowing how to split the pots. Run it twice and it just slows things down even more. Last year there were some pots that took about 10 minutes for the dealer to sort out because they were run twice and each pot was split several ways. I stopped playing in those games after two days because they were so slow and they were charging by the half hour.

Other than that, from a mathematical perspective it makes no difference at all whether you run it twice or not - your edge (or lack thereof) does not change. In other words, it makes no difference whether you are a favourite or an underdog in the pot - the maths is still the same no matter how often you run it. But it does reduce variance, and perhaps makes you 'one of the boys'.

With the exception of time charged high-low games, I personally never refuse to run it twice if I am asked to. Whatever my opponents want to do they can do as far as I am concerned. But I never ask to do it myself.

I have friends who adopt a policy of refusing to ever run it twice. Their idea is that it makes opponents more fearful of them since they know they are not going to be allowed to run it twice if they call that big all-in bet. So maybe they fold marginal hands a little more often, which allows my friends to be more successful with their bluffs. There is something to be said for this I guess, but personally I don't want to do anything to encourage opponents to fold their bag of spanners when I have taken a big position in a pot.

If you tilt less than your opponents when you lose a big pot then you gain a reciprocal edge by refusing to run it twice. One of you is going to do your money if it is only run one time, and this is a good thing for the person with the best emotional control. If you win the pot then great - your opponent is likely going to start steaming. If you lose the pot then also great - now you have the opportunity to gain a reciprocal edge through not tilting.

[tikay]

Thanks Stu.

My - so far - policy is like yours, it seems - I accept if asked, but have never once offered it. Much the same as my "deals" policy on Final Tables really.

Fair to say, when it is run twice, there are all-ins & split pots, it can take forever, then everyone tries to "help" the Dealer by butting in.....The time charge is $6 per 30 minutes, so yes, it adds up.

Tilt? Lol, not gonna happen. Tilt never ceases to amaze me, it seems a fairly immature trait in a poker player, poker is, by its very nature, a game where we get brutal outdraws. If you cant get used to them without throwing a kiddy strop, best not play the game imo.

I must confess to getting angry with a chap who tried to literally STEAL my chips in an odd situation last week, so I resolved, with a tad of controlled anger, to bust his arse. And I did. Most pleasing. Suppose that was a bit tilty, but it was controlled, which, I hope, is different.

[tikay]

think if you play with people regularly you're more likely to run it twice and it doesn't matter what shape you're in. It's probably more to do with the size of the pot.

think you could've politely declined simply by saying "no thank you"

Thanks Geo. I'll be brave next time.

Run it twice, you miserable turd? You can fuc* right off. Now. You hear me boy?

[SuuPRlim]

I only ever tilted a guy bu not running it twice once in all the times. A simple "No sorry I only want to do this one once" usually people are just like fine nps deal.

[celtic]

Was playing at star city a while back, had about 110 in front of me, got it in pre with JJ. Mad Chinese guy calls and asks if I want to run it 3 times. He covers by about 600. I say no. Board runs out 9 high and he has AA.

Is it normal to want to do this with aces in this situation?

[GreekStein]

What would you have done if he asked you for an equity chop?

In high stakes poker pretty much everyone runs all ins twice. There is one guy I know of who doesn't...

Fast forward to 3:30 or so. I think Phil Laak's reaction is because Ivey never runs it twice and it's seen as sick by even the sickos to not reduce variance in those huge pots.

I guess Mercier will think twice the next time he considers making a move against Ivey. So running it twice or once is an interesting one because the fact that all those guys bar Ivey will run it twice makes it a little easier to think about semi-bluffing or bluffing them. So I guess running it once or twice has an impact on how the game plays and how people play against you.

I run it twice when I'm playing on Full tilt. I only ever untick it when I know I have someone dead to avoid paying extra rake, which is naturally very very rarely, particularly when you play like me ldo. I just don't like it when sometimes people run it twice and sometimes they don't so think it's better to stay consistent with it.

[GreekStein]

Was playing at star city a while back, had about 110 in front of me, got it in pre with JJ. Mad Chinese guy calls and asks if I want to run it 3 times. He covers by about 600. I say no. Board runs out 9 high and he has AA.

Is it normal to want to do this with aces in this situation?

Just a nit that wants to secure some(most) of the money.

[George2Loose]

Remember that hand. U could see how wounded mercier was.

On my phone but another famous run it twice hand is where greenstein and durr get it in on qxxss. Durr has kqss and greenstein aces.

[Tal]

Sorry? Are we doing YouTube clips of people running it multiple times?



Even though I know it's coming, I'm still struggling for breath laughing.