600NL shouldn't happen

[SuuPRlim]

Would rather hammer nails into my balls than C/r this flop.

I would rather c/r this flop.

[celtic]

Would rather hammer nails into my balls than C/r this flop.

I would rather c/r this flop.

I would rather hammer nails into lildaves balls than do either of the above.

[SuuPRlim]

I'd rather we just c/r the flop than anyone hammer nails into anyones balls.

[PathFinder]

So if we are chk calling KK are we doing the same with JJ/QJ/KQ? Or even AA/QQ.

We should not have KQ/QJ/JJ in our range.

I don't see too much of a problem having these in our 3 bet range preflop unless Villian is a complete nit

To me it just feels our chk call range won't contain enough top range stuff unless you stick AK in there. We also have the here so surely that influences our line?

We should probably check quite a few of our Ax hands too.

So whats our betting range?

I think he calls our bet with more than Qx to make our bet for value. I believe he calls J10/K10 (blockers I know) suited connectors 89hh+ backdoor spades as floats. I think if we chk he only bluffs hands with barrel equity.

I did not say that betting was wrong as such. What I said was that the reason you gave for betting (that villain can put pressure on us if we check - i.e. we want to avoid difficult decisions) was not a good reason for betting. There IS value in betting since villain can float us with gutters and second pair type hands. There is also a protection aspect to betting. But betting because we fear being put under pressure if we check is not a good reason.

Im not as articulate as you, what i say and what i mean are completely different things at times  .

Tbh, along with some Ax type hands, we have a pretty perfect check-calling hand. This is because we don't need to worry about protecting our hand too much (since no overcards can come), and we do pretty well against his check-back range - which means we can value bet the turn and/or river if he checks back the flop.

  

I honestly think a competent player will chk back Ax.

If opponent checks back Ax that is a big win for us, right?

Sure we "save" money on the flop but i think this can lead us to losing money on the Turn and River and it also allows Villian to play his range perfectly vs us.

I mean are we chk calling turn too if villian chks flop?

Depends what the turn card is... we can turn the NFD, trip Kings, or a gutter remember, although we might also c/c turn without picking up additional equity. BTW there is nothing theoretically wrong with c/c twice and then folding river - despite the popular aversion to taking this line. We also c/c with a lot of our Ax hands, and with these we (almost always) call the river.

If we dont have KQ/QJ/JJ in our 3 bet range as you stated how many Ax hands do we have here that doesnt have 2 pair? Just AJ surely? Which doesnt feel enough to balance a chk call range?

[tight4better]

Would rather hammer nails into my balls than C/r this flop.

I would rather c/r this flop.

Why? Pretty interested into the plan here.

[Honeybadger]

We should not have KQ/QJ/JJ in our range.

I don't see too much of a problem having these in our 3 bet range preflop unless Villian is a complete nit

It would be really, really bad to 3bet these hands vs an UTG open. Of course, if we knew villain was a really loose (and really weak) player then that may change - but we don't have any reads except for one HH that doesn't tell us much at all since no detail was given. In general, if you go around 3betting KQ and JJ from the blinds vs an UTG open at 600NL you are going to get utterly destroyed.

The exact way you contruct your 3bet range is up to you, but putting KQ/JJ type hands into this range is going to end in tears. Perhaps something like AA, KK and AK for value (AK is a unique sort of value, but not going to get into that here) balanced by some suited connectors and perhaps some suited wheel Aces. Even a hand as strong as QQ is slightly too thin to 3bet for value from the BB vs an UTG raise.

We should probably check quite a few of our Ax hands too.

So whats our betting range?

Not sure on this one exactly, and don't have time to think about it too much. My first thoughts are that we might have to do a LOT of checking, since villain's range is actually stronger than ours on this flop. Obviously it depends on how we contruct our 3betting range, but given that we should not generally be 3betting QQ or AQ vs an UTG raise (but villain has these in his range) the only really strong hand we have on this flop is top set (and perhaps top and bottom pair if we 3bet bluff some Axs hands). So we should be checking a lot with our range.

If opponent checks back Ax that is a big win for us, right?

Sure we "save" money on the flop but i think this can lead us to losing money on the Turn and River and it also allows Villian to play his range perfectly vs us.

Well villain can also play his range perfectly against us if we bet! Yes, we have sort of capped our range by checking (although actually not really because we might also want to check top set here too - and perhaps we should given how often I believe we should be checking this flop). But this is not a massive issue, especially when the SPR is pretty small so villain cannot be overbetting multiple streets.

If we dont have KQ/QJ/JJ in our 3 bet range as you stated how many Ax hands do we have here that doesnt have 2 pair? Just AJ surely? Which doesnt feel enough to balance a chk call range?

Well we definitely should not be 3betting AJ preflop! Our Ax hands are going to be AK and some suited wheel Aces (if we decide to use these in our 3bet bluff range).

BTW I am not certain that all of the above is correct... I have not put much thought into it (and I don't play NL any more, so am a bit rusty on ranges). But the principles are going to be more or less correct, even if the details are not.

The one thing that is 100% correct though is to do with the preflop 3betting stuff - i.e. you should definitely NOT be 3betting stuff like JJ and KQ in this spot.

[pleno1]

yeah its basically correct, here is what my 3betting strategy would look like


Defending range

66 and better pairs
AJs and better suited aces
AQo and better aces
87s and better suited connectors (if vs tough opponent tighter is ok, if vs weaker opponent wider is ok)
KQs (maybe QJs depending on opponent, but likely folding)

Value 3betting range would look like

KK and AA which is 1% and 12 combos obv

Bluff 3betting range would look like

AJs, T8s, KTs, 97s

Basically 4 suited combos of connecting hands, Ax wheel suited is ok too giving me 16 combos.

This is just super raw and vs opponents my range would increase but not usually decrease.

[pleno1]

So when I 3bet pre flop I would

bet -  KTs and 3 combos of the other suited stuff that I said I would 3bet pre flop. This would be the back door flush draw combos.

I would likely bet AA sometimes and check it sometimes, I feel like we can have a disjointed betting range consisting of more bluffs vs value combos because AK and QQ will be heavily in our perceived range. I would also sometimes have AQs as one of the combos that I 3bet pre flop on rare occasion so would bet those otf too.


I think around 4 months ago I played a kinda different strategy which I dont like as much now.

[pleno1]

and i also play a no 3bet strategy vs some opponents too fwiw.

[PathFinder]

Ok i have a much wider linear 3 bet range (assuming this is 6max) but again my usual game is 50nl Rush... So have you made your adjustments because its 600nl or is this the same for lower stakes?

I mean my 3bet range vs UTG 6max is something like

JJ+ AJs+ AQo+

This will also include KQ if villain is loose

[Honeybadger]

Ok i have much wider but linear 3 bet range (assuming this is 6max) but again my usual game is 50nl Rush... So have you made your adjustments because its 600nl or is this the same for lower stakes?

I mean my 3bet range vs UTG 6max is something like

JJ+ AJs+ AQo+

This will also include KQ if villain is loose

You can probably get away with this at 50NL, but in tougher games you will get eaten alive if you 3bet such a depolarised range vs UTG opens.

Re the bit I have emboldened. It is actually the other way round. If you are 3betting an extended value range at 50NL then it is you that is making the adjustment from optimal theoretical play. It may be a very good exploitative adjustment of course, but it is still an adjustment. As games get tougher you cannot make such big deviations from theoretical play - the standard of opponents you face is stronger and these opponents are playing closer to optimal poker... and so you must do as well.

It is still all guesswork regarding fine details though of course. No-one is certain what the perfect GTO range is for, say, 3betting an UTG open from the BB. For example, should AK and QQ be part of our value 3bet range? Or should we flat them? It is going to be close either way and no-one can prove beyond doubt what is correct in these close spots. Same thing with constructing our 3bet bluffing range - should we use suited connectors, suited Aces, small pocket pairs... or a combination of these?

Edited to say: I have overstated things when I said 3betting your linear range will get you 'eaten alive'. It is not quite that extreme. The range you give is still not terribly wide, only 4.5% of hands. And if you are 3bet/folding AQ, AJs, JJ (and perhaps QQ) then you still have a 'nuts/bluff' construction to your range. The problem is that these are not the best hands to choose to bluff with! Yes I realise that they are not really bluffs as such, since there is a value element to them when UTG calls (that's why we term it a linear range) - but you are are essentially 'wasting' these hands by 3bet/folding them. These hands play much better as flats, which allows you to put other hands into your 3bet/folding range (as much more pure bluffs - 87s, A5s type stuff) that are NOT strong enough to flat with, which basically allows you to play more hands preflop. You can think of it in two ways:

a) Whilst it may be +EV to 3bet AQ/JJ (as much as anything because of the times opponent folds), it is more +EV to flat them.

b) 3betting AQ/JJ etc has an opportunity cost - you are no longer able to play hands like A5s or 87s, hands which are not strong enough to flat with but could be used to profitably bluff with. This means you get to play less hands preflop, and thus your winrate goes down.

Again, just to repeat... your linear 3betting strategy may well be a skillful adjustment to exploit the regs at 50NL. But you must be certain in your mind that this is what it is - an adjustment.

[PathFinder]

That's a really good way to look at it. I didn't realise my 3 bet range vs UTG was more of an adjustment I figured it was close to GTO! I'm assuming these hands that defend turn into 3 bets the later position the raise comes from? Also let's say the UTG raise gets flatted before it gets round to you are you more likely to 3 bet more of your "defend range"?

Apologies for de-railing thread

[dwayne110]

If you don't coach Mr Honeybadger, you should. Really like how you break pokerz down

[Honeybadger]

If you don't coach Mr Honeybadger, you should. Really like how you break pokerz down

Thanks pal, that is a nice compliment. I believe Mondatoo is about to put up a thread trying to raise money for charity - the idea being that everyone who donates goes into a draw to get some free coaching. I've agreed to be one of the coaches, so I will be doing some (free) coaching soon.

[Rexas]

If you don't coach Mr Honeybadger, you should. Really like how you break pokerz down

Thanks pal, that is a nice compliment. I believe Mondatoo is about to put up a thread trying to raise money for charity - the idea being that everyone who donates goes into a draw to get some free coaching. I've agreed to be one of the coaches, so I will be doing some (free) coaching soon.

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