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Author Topic: Calling range on river in 3bet pot  (Read 1512 times)
KingPush
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« on: September 18, 2014, 01:49:34 PM »

PokerStars Zoom Hand #121685629506:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2014/09/17 21:51:12 WET [2014/09/17 16:51:12 ET]
Table 'Klinkenberg' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: websolo ($10.17 in chips)
Seat 2: SuckMyAcess ($28.18 in chips)
Seat 3: Cooperman45 ($10.28 in chips)
Seat 4: theIpoker ($15.25 in chips)
Seat 5: karlik84 ($11.62 in chips)
Seat 6: dickys123 ($9.90 in chips)
SuckMyAcess: posts small blind $0.05
Cooperman45: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Cooperman45 [ Two Diamonds]
theIpoker: folds
karlik84: folds
dickys123: raises $0.20 to $0.30
websolo: folds
SuckMyAcess: folds
Cooperman45: raises $0.60 to $0.90
dickys123: calls $0.60
*** FLOP *** [two hearts ]
Cooperman45: bets $0.90
dickys123: calls $0.90
*** TURN *** [two hearts ] []
Cooperman45: checks
dickys123: bets $1.70
Cooperman45: calls $1.70
*** RIVER *** [two hearts ] []
Cooperman45: checks
dickys123: bets $3.40
Cooperman45: calls $3.40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dickys123: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Eights)
Cooperman45: mucks hand
dickys123 collected $13.23 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13.85 | Rake $0.62
Board [two hearts ]
Seat 1: websolo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: SuckMyAcess (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Cooperman45 (big blind) mucked [ Two Diamonds]
Seat 4: theIpoker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: karlik84 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: dickys123 showed [ ] and won ($13.23) with three of a kind, Eights

Think I only check call AJ and A2 on the turn here which I think is too weak if opponent isn't spewing so what hands would you x/c two here?
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Oxford_HRV
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 02:19:49 PM »

i dont really like 3b with A2 on zoom, you should bet turn here, it doesnt improve anyones hand (well it effectively shouldnt) and you should be betting for value and some fold equity from small aces

im going with AT+ on the river

think i'd never give up the betting lead on this turn with anything
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PaintingByNumbers
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 05:01:56 PM »

Think I only check call AJ and A2 on the turn here which I think is too weak if opponent isn't spewing so what hands would you x/c two here?
Hard to answer without knowing your betting range on the Flop (i.e. which hands you were intending to b/ch/b and which b/b/b hands you have now decided to b/ch/b due to the 8.)
I would guess that AJ seems fine, and A2 is maybe a Call now and a Fold on the River.

i dont really like 3b with A2 on zoom, you should bet turn here, it doesnt improve anyones hand (well it effectively shouldnt) and you should be betting for value and some fold equity from small aces

I wouldn't 3b here readless, but doesn't seem a bad candidate to do so.

I think 78s and 89s are borderline defends preflop for MP but I can understand why someone wouldn't have them.
Surely the 8 improves a large portion of MP's range versus our hand here? Do you mean that versus the rest of our range he won't improve? Bit confused by this point.

I doubt there are many (any) small aces in MP's range.
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KingPush
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »

Villain is CO. I really don't think betting twice here is good, what would you do on the river?
Think I only check call AJ and A2 on the turn here which I think is too weak if opponent isn't spewing so what hands would you x/c two here?
Hard to answer without knowing your betting range on the Flop (i.e. which hands you were intending to b/ch/b and which b/b/b hands you have now decided to b/ch/b due to the 8.)
I would guess that AJ seems fine, and A2 is maybe a Call now and a Fold on the River.



Think i'd have some , FDs, BDFDs, some As and and other stuff like KT-KQ with a diamond. I think I should be check calling with some hands that can check call twice though and I think having AJ as the top of my range for x/c x/c is probably too weak.
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Rexas
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 05:25:13 PM »


I wouldn't 3b here readless, but doesn't seem a bad candidate to do so.

I think 78s and 89s are borderline defends preflop for MP but I can understand why someone wouldn't have them.
Surely the 8 improves a large portion of MP's range versus our hand here? Do you mean that versus the rest of our range he won't improve? Bit confused by this point.

I doubt there are many (any) small aces in MP's range.

3b seems rather small, I'm not going to be folding loads to it. Absolutely not folding 78 ss and 89 ss. Reasonable hand to 3b with though IMO.

Turn can go either way, but I'm certainly not looking to check call two streets with a pretty bad bluff catcher. Against particularly good people I can definitely see the attraction of check raising the turn, although at this level check/call - check/fold seems close. I mean, its not a particularly draw heavy board, and I wouldn't want to think he's going to randomly float us otf here without a very good reason to do so, so basically all hes bluffing with is missed clubs. Given the is out there, he loses a few of the more likely cc combos pre, and again he would have to be merrily barreling them off ott and otr, which just isn't going to happen much at 10nl zoom. We just can't beat anything.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 05:38:26 PM by Rexas » Logged

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Rexas
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 05:31:18 PM »

What sort of range do you check call ott? Does it have any in it? Defo should be checking AA ott if we've decided to bet the flop with it (although I wouldnt all that often)
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PaintingByNumbers
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 06:22:37 PM »

Villain is CO. I really don't think betting twice here is good, what would you do on the river?

Sorry, I often find the hhs hard to read.
So, CO having A8s and T8s seems reasonable.
I would still not 3b A2s, but closer than before.

A2 seems a Fold on the River, it doesn't seem wrong in theory to have some hands that bet Flop, Ch/C Turn and Ch/F River, and Ax hands can do this. Though AJ would be better to Ch Flop, and bet Turn and River I reckon.

Also, at 10NL Zoom I would err on the side of Folding too much.
Think i'd have some , FDs, BDFDs, some As and and other stuff like KT-KQ with a diamond. I think I should be check calling with some hands that can check call twice though and I think having AJ as the top of my range for x/c x/c is probably too weak.

You mean AJ is too weak to be the top of your range for this?
Well, we are bluff catching by now and I don't think we should be trying to strengthen this range as the SPR is q low.
In theory, we should be bluff catching Turn and River some of the time, we can adjust though.
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KingPush
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 07:23:03 PM »

What sort of range do you check call ott? Does it have any in it? Defo should be checking AA ott if we've decided to bet the flop with it (although I wouldnt all that often)

yeah I was thinking I needed some 8x in it which means betting like j8hh on the flop which i think is fine.

"You mean AJ is too weak to be the top of your range for this?"

I know we're bluff catching but villain can definitely have strong hands here. We don't beat any non bluffs here. So Aj for me can't be the only hjand we get to the river with in this spot that we're calling with if you see what I mean.
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PaintingByNumbers
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 11:45:42 PM »

I don't think we need to be worried about having a capped range once we've bet the Flop as stack depth will be such that it won't really matter.

We don't need to cbet just so we have trips when it pairs on the Turn.

We don't need to be checking strong hands on the Turn just so that we don't have a bluffcatcher on the River, tho we may want to Ch/Shove some 8's as it's a double flush board. A bluffcatcher doesn't normally beat anything but bluffs, and the A has a positive removal effect.

It makes sense that we use the strongest part of our Flop two street betting range (i.e. we expect to be checking Flop, Turn or River) to defend when we've checked. Unless the runout is such that enough other hands have improved, and I don't think that is the case here.
Though, on the Flop, I would Ch/C AA because of the removal effect and likely 88 as it's not too vulnerable (esp vs the hands we would be folding out) and both can attack later.

If we don't think the Villain is bluffing then Fold. Don't overcomplicate things as it's Zoom and there could be three other decisions flashing away. Away from the table there's likely easier improvements to be made.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 04:29:43 AM »

KingPush, you should spend a lot of time thinking about anything PaintingByNumbers says (and ask him for clarifications etc). Trust me... he is very, very, very good at theory stuff and thinks about poker in exactly the way you are trying to. If he could post more on PHA it would be great!
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