£50NL - Flopped FD, Turned GS, best line?

[cambridgealex]

Don't wanna 4b bluff this hand at all, such a waste when we get 5bet! Way too good to 4bf imo. Would rather have hands that either

a) have blockers eg offsuit broadways, AJo, ATo or

b) flop well eg A6s, K9s, T7s

Usually if a hand is just too bad to peel with, but feels too good/nice to fold, then that can be a 4b bluffing hand.

Obviously this doesn't mean you should 4b bluff every time you get 3bet holding one of these hands, not by any means!

Of those hands, I have 1 in my standard opening range from this position. I guess I'm never going to get this game :p

this utg1 6max, or THE HIJACK right!?!

[MelissaChloe]

Calling the 3bet pre is fine 320bb deep. If we were 100bb deep then I wouldn't like it.

Agree that it is wp so far and I would just x-c turn. Doing anything else is just getting too fancy and doesn't make much sense imo.

[Rexas]

Don't wanna 4b bluff this hand at all, such a waste when we get 5bet! Way too good to 4bf imo. Would rather have hands that either

a) have blockers eg offsuit broadways, AJo, ATo or

b) flop well eg A6s, K9s, T7s

Usually if a hand is just too bad to peel with, but feels too good/nice to fold, then that can be a 4b bluffing hand.

Obviously this doesn't mean you should 4b bluff every time you get 3bet holding one of these hands, not by any means!

Of those hands, I have 1 in my standard opening range from this position. I guess I'm never going to get this game :p

this utg1 6max, or THE HIJACK right!?!

If we're opening these hands, even if they are the stone bottom of an opening range, surely we're opening too wide? This works out as like 24% or so of hands that we're opening from mp, which seems too wide given how often we'll now have to defend vs 3bs. Pretty sure the current thinking is that opening about 18% from this position is about right.

[Lambert180]

Sigh, I feel like an absolute tool now but always best to own up....

I blame the Sky HH (.... and myself). Obv in game I knew what was going on RE position but last night in a rush to just get it posted up on PHA before bed, I stupidly just saw the BTN next to the villian's name and assumed he was the BTN, when he was actually the SB. Also being in a rush, I just quickly got the runout and bet amounts and obv didn't notice that he bet first on every street lol.

http://gyazo.com/fd8be6d6f677e0009e3b7cf296e2a5c9

So the whole hand is flipped, exactly as per OP but I am Hijack and he is SB so we're IP. I thought a call was ok pre (when I thought I was oop), I assume being IP makes this standard now?

The reason I was unsure when reviewing it was because... being OOP, if we just call the turn, he's gonna checkback almost all rivers which are an out to us, so leaves us in a spot where we are c/f missed rivers and if we hit, he's rarely gonna bet if we check and if we donk river our hand's kinda face up.

Obv this is all nonsense now, cos we were IP, so makes it a pretty easy call flop, call turn, right?

Fwiw, in game I made it like £41 on the turn and he folded.

[Rexas]

It's prompted a fun discussion, so its a good mis-post imo

Fwiw I'm now pretty much on board with flatting the 3b pre if we're oop, although I still don't think 4bing will be bad.

Now I think it's a more simple call/call/call

If we were OOP and decided to call, we don't really need to win the pot on a blank river for it to be profitable for us to call the turn. We're not getting the immediate odds ott to call with our current equity but when we hit, we don't need to win much to make it profitable. So it's basically unnecessary to go crazy on a blank river because once we've called the turn we're already in a +ev spot. Also, imo, if we x/r turn and get called and have the intention of firing any river, we're actually going to be in a worse situation because I don't expect him to fold much that calls turn, and we are also putting ourselves in a position where we can get blown off our hand ott.

It's probably reasonably close between calling and raising, I just think on balance calling is going to be better.

[Lambert180]

Cheers.

Tbh, it might be exploitable but my thinking with the turn c/r (assuming we're OOP) would be to still give up on missed rivers. As you say, there's not alot he's gonna call turn then fold black rivers with.... BUT.... there are a lot of better hands that I can get folds from, we'll still have good equity V pretty much anything that calls except the couple of Axdd combos and there are vv few hands he'd 3bet the turn with imo.

In terms of stuff I'm folding out on turn... I think he bet/folds JJ-KK (although we have blockers), all non-2pr Ax hands (and probably hates life w/ A3 + A4), think he'd barrel (and fold) KQ/KJ

[Rexas]

Cheers.

Tbh, it might be exploitable but my thinking with the turn c/r (assuming we're OOP) would be to still give up on missed rivers. As you say, there's not alot he's gonna call turn then fold black rivers with.... BUT.... there are a lot of better hands that I can get folds from, we'll still have good equity V pretty much anything that calls except the couple of Axdd combos and there are vv few hands he'd 3bet the turn with imo.

In terms of stuff I'm folding out on turn... I think he bet/folds JJ-KK (although we have blockers), all non-2pr Ax hands (and probably hates life w/ A3 + A4), think he'd barrel (and fold) KQ/KJ

Meh, think its more to do with how balanced this is - i.e., what value hands are we raising here? If we raise 33 and 44 otf, which seems fine, and just 10s ott, then we need 3 combos of bluffs to balance out the 3 combos of 10s we have. I'd likely go for   ,   and   based on the mantra alex outlined -

Usually if a hand is just too bad to peel with, but feels too good/nice to fold, then that can be a [4b] bluffing hand.

[cambridgealex]

Cheers.

Tbh, it might be exploitable but my thinking with the turn c/r (assuming we're OOP) would be to still give up on missed rivers. As you say, there's not alot he's gonna call turn then fold black rivers with.... BUT.... there are a lot of better hands that I can get folds from, we'll still have good equity V pretty much anything that calls except the couple of Axdd combos and there are vv few hands he'd 3bet the turn with imo.

In terms of stuff I'm folding out on turn... I think he bet/folds JJ-KK (although we have blockers), all non-2pr Ax hands (and probably hates life w/ A3 + A4), think he'd barrel (and fold) KQ/KJ

Meh, think its more to do with how balanced this is - i.e., what value hands are we raising here? If we raise 33 and 44 otf, which seems fine, and just 10s ott, then we need 3 combos of bluffs to balance out the 3 combos of 10s we have. I'd likely go for  ,  and  based on the mantra alex outlined -

Usually if a hand is just too bad to peel with, but feels too good/nice to fold, then that can be a [4b] bluffing hand.

I'm not meaning to target you Rexas, but this is factually incorrect. You don't need the same number of bluffing combos as value combos to be balanced. It depends on the size of the bet or raise compared to the pot.

Put very simply. If we are on the river and POT = £100 and I bet £100, to be balanced, to make you indifferent to calling/folding, I need to have my Value/Bluff combos in a 2:1 ratio. Because I'm giving you 2:1 (You are calling £100 to win £200) so if I have an equal value/bluff combos, then you have a nicely profitable call because half the time you'll profit £200, half the time you'll lose the £100 call.

[pleno1]

4net folding Ian bad because it's not an mtt. Guys don't just 5bet bluff in cash games it doesn't  really work like that. People peel pairs to hit sets not 3b5b them. If we make it smallish we even make him peel stuff that he 3bet bluffed like j9cc. He's also not likely to 3bet kq vs is so we're never really dominated and he will shove ak pre so we don't have to worry about reverse implied odds. So we're dominated by

Ak/ no
Kq/ no
Aj/potentially

But we're going to have the lead on the flop and win when we both flop nothing and occasionally dominate him on k/j high flops.

[PaintingByNumbers]

I think I quite like the Ch/R Turn line as we want at least one dd hand to go with the TT that I think definitely wants to Ch/R Turn. I probably slightly prefer QJdd, but then KJ is happier to call a 3b.

I know a consensus on Pre seems to have emerged, but I just wanted to add a couple of things.
We're not going to be 4b wide for value (AA,KK,AKs?) so we can't 4b bluff many hands here, weak Axs are better for this?
People will have different MP opening ranges but KJs is v likely to be in the top half of this.
If we have 44 and 33 then our range won't be well blended? Do people think the added polarity (we'll have more nutted hands and, therefore, bluffs) this adds compensates for the weakness of our bluffcatchers (we'll block less, get outdrawn more, and improve less on most textures.

As for the ratios, Alex is right in what he says, but I think here the numbers will show a roughly 1:1 ratio, which I think is what Rexas was suggesting.

[cambridgealex]

I think I quite like the Ch/R Turn line as we want at least one dd hand to go with the TT that I think definitely wants to Ch/R Turn. I probably slightly prefer QJdd, but then KJ is happier to call a 3b.

I know a consensus on Pre seems to have emerged, but I just wanted to add a couple of things.
We're not going to be 4b wide for value (AA,KK,AKs?) so we can't 4b bluff many hands here, weak Axs are better for this?
People will have different MP opening ranges but KJs is v likely to be in the top half of this.
If we have 44 and 33 then our range won't be well blended? Do people think the added polarity (we'll have more nutted hands and, therefore, bluffs) this adds compensates for the weakness of our bluffcatchers (we'll block less, get outdrawn more, and improve less on most textures.

As for the ratios, Alex is right in what he says, but I think here the numbers will show a roughly 1:1 ratio, which I think is what Rexas was suggesting.

Agree with much of what you say.

Yes it's possible that in this case a certain raise sizing could mean that the ratios should be 1:1, but Rexas seemed to be making a blanket statement of "you have 3 value combos therefore you need 3 bluffs", which is of course rarely the case.

[AlexMartin]

Can't see any reason why peeling the 3bet would be bad in the slightest.

Wp so far, calling turn too.

yep, never folding this pre. Dont like raising turn much, can have best hand a lot and without reads default calling is better with almost entire range; maybe some weaker diamond draws some of the time and sets.

[SuuPRlim]

considering we've already put 2 of the 3 required bets into the pot I can't see much of a good reason to fold pre-flop, with the stacks as they are.

Calling turn seems a lot better than raising to me as I think our hand has plenty equity to call, given this is a card he'll really want to barrel there is a very good chance a K or a J wins for us too and our K-J high might actually have just a glimmer of SD value.

this is actually one of those rare spots if it was live poker where i might check blind after calling the turn

[KingPush]

Probably 4betting this and calling kqs. As played calling flop and turn and then folding river unimproved and not betting when xd to.