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Author Topic: Dear Pleno.......Best Regards, Richard  (Read 32061 times)
pleno1
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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2014, 12:27:44 AM »

sorry i was 99% sure id included it but i meant professionally.
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2014, 01:04:52 AM »

Yeah if anyone wants to know anything about how the cartels/divisions work fire away, I set up the one for $100 turbos with a few others

A lot of the problems that the hypers cartels had with backers being in, some of their horses being out and the handbags/politics that comes along with it because hardly anyone in our group is staked.

These groups forming are just a natural evolution of the game with sharkystrator coming along. When you had to manual reg lobbies the big time bumhunters knew that they had no shot to get a lobby so there wasn't really a problem, but with the introduction of this software anyone that bought it could have it watch a lobby and sit when it opened up, which caused a stream of players to start joining the sharky queue knowing that they'd be able to grab the lobby for a little while and maybe get a game against a recreational player at a much higher stake than they'd be able to open sit.

The bumhunters getting games against recs takes money out of the pockets of the players that are good enough to play that stake (we can debate whether the idea of the best players being more 'deserving' of the games against recs all day, but most would agree with poker being a meritocracy) and the only way to fight it was to team up and sit these guys as soon as they get a lobby. The sharky queue was getting up to 12 or more people meaning you were waiting over an hour between games and that obviously isn't sustainable. At first there were obviously a lot of complaints from the players that were no longer able to maintain a good hourly by playing -10% ROI players all day.

It really shook things up, made regs look at each other and say 'do I really want to share lobbies with this guy?'

Some very well established regs that had great records from years ago but had fallen behind the curve got burned and tumbled down the stakes. Some people that were good and were moving up got stung in that they now had to play a lot more games against regs than they would otherwise have done to be able to open sit higher stakes.

The mechanics from the inside are we have a list of players that are not in the group but that are trying to sit the lobbies. All group members are obliged to sit these players whenever they get a lobby. Anyone shirking their responsibilities and trying to freeroll the rest of the group by not battling vs the sit list players gets kicked. The difference between the 1ks vs Coleman and most of the other groups is that you don't actually have to take a chunk of money from the group to get in, you just have to make it not worth our while to play you, so you have to beat the group over a decent sample for more than the rake. Players that are clearly stronger than some of the weaker group members get in much faster, but the reality of the poker economy is that these requirements will have to be tightened as the pool of recs slowly dries up.

The introduction of Spin n Gos on stars is the final nail in the coffin for HUSNGs imo especially regspeeds and turbos which have been in terminal decline since the introduction of heads up hypers. I actually quit heads up sngs to concentrate on learning PLO a couple of months ago.

Wouldn't you love to get in a time machine back to the 70s and explain what poker has become to Doyle Brunson and Amarillo Slim?
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2014, 09:04:30 AM »

I also found it interesting, all very logical but slightly depressing that things have evolved to ensure that the fish get eaten as quickly and efficiently as possible. Much like a food chain where a predator that is just too successful will end up decimating it's own prey and end up starving to death.
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2014, 09:57:18 AM »

Yeah if anyone wants to know anything about how the cartels/divisions work fire away, I set up the one for $100 turbos with a few others

A lot of the problems that the hypers cartels had with backers being in, some of their horses being out and the handbags/politics that comes along with it because hardly anyone in our group is staked.

These groups forming are just a natural evolution of the game with sharkystrator coming along. When you had to manual reg lobbies the big time bumhunters knew that they had no shot to get a lobby so there wasn't really a problem, but with the introduction of this software anyone that bought it could have it watch a lobby and sit when it opened up, which caused a stream of players to start joining the sharky queue knowing that they'd be able to grab the lobby for a little while and maybe get a game against a recreational player at a much higher stake than they'd be able to open sit.

The bumhunters getting games against recs takes money out of the pockets of the players that are good enough to play that stake (we can debate whether the idea of the best players being more 'deserving' of the games against recs all day, but most would agree with poker being a meritocracy) and the only way to fight it was to team up and sit these guys as soon as they get a lobby. The sharky queue was getting up to 12 or more people meaning you were waiting over an hour between games and that obviously isn't sustainable. At first there were obviously a lot of complaints from the players that were no longer able to maintain a good hourly by playing -10% ROI players all day.

It really shook things up, made regs look at each other and say 'do I really want to share lobbies with this guy?'

Some very well established regs that had great records from years ago but had fallen behind the curve got burned and tumbled down the stakes. Some people that were good and were moving up got stung in that they now had to play a lot more games against regs than they would otherwise have done to be able to open sit higher stakes.

The mechanics from the inside are we have a list of players that are not in the group but that are trying to sit the lobbies. All group members are obliged to sit these players whenever they get a lobby. Anyone shirking their responsibilities and trying to freeroll the rest of the group by not battling vs the sit list players gets kicked. The difference between the 1ks vs Coleman and most of the other groups is that you don't actually have to take a chunk of money from the group to get in, you just have to make it not worth our while to play you, so you have to beat the group over a decent sample for more than the rake. Players that are clearly stronger than some of the weaker group members get in much faster, but the reality of the poker economy is that these requirements will have to be tightened as the pool of recs slowly dries up.

The introduction of Spin n Gos on stars is the final nail in the coffin for HUSNGs imo especially regspeeds and turbos which have been in terminal decline since the introduction of heads up hypers. I actually quit heads up sngs to concentrate on learning PLO a couple of months ago.



Thanks for the input Dan, seems I was not the only one who was stunned by all this. Most of us here on blonde have been in poker a very long time, & yet most of us knew nothing of this "inner world".

Can you explain this to me, please?

The 100's recently kicked a well known coach as his students were killing the members.

They would not allow him in the cartel because he was training others to become better players?
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« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2014, 10:00:08 AM »


What do 'Stars think of all this? Not fussed?

What would happen if 'Stars banned "Sharkystrator" & similar sites?

If I owned an online poker site, I'm not sure I'd be keen to allow these players to exert that amount of control over my Clients in general.
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2014, 10:01:03 AM »

I don't think anybody playing cash games or hu sbags should ever be staked. Perhaps sell action of themselves in a higher game when they are taking a shot but I think only mtt players have enough variance that they should be staked.

I think that's a pretty ridiculous statement pads.

Iexcluding MTT players from that makes no sense, if you're saying that if you're a pro player that can beat certain games then you should have the ability to manage your bankroll and lofestyle costs appropriately then why different for MTT players? Yes I get MTT variance is crazy high but then if you're managing a bankroll properly that shouldn't matter, if your bankroll drops below $200k then don't play the Super Tuesday, or sell 50% or whatever it is, don't play the 100r play the big 11 instead till the br increases again, it's exactly the same.

There is no difference between a player with the track record and proven ability to beat high stakes mtts but only the br to play mid stakes getting staked for high stakes than a player with a proven track record at 5/10 online but only the br to play 2/4 getting staked (although I do accept the path from 2/4 to 5/10 is a lot smoother than mid stakes to high stakes mtts)

I think that's a comment you'd never have made a year ago.

I do think 7/10 staking deals are bad deals but plenty of perfectly viable staking deals going on.
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2014, 10:04:30 AM »

Amazed by this

Dan

do you think many recreational players in games where these lobby cartels exist know of their existence?

what do you think they would think about them?

do you think being excluded from a "secret club" would encourage recreational players to even want to sit in these games, if they knew about it?

aren't you all contributing further to "poker eating itself" and yet more software to iron out the recreationals quicker can only negativiely affect the longevity of the games for most, rather than the few in the cartel?
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2014, 10:06:39 AM »

I also found it interesting, all very logical but slightly depressing that things have evolved to ensure that the fish get eaten as quickly and efficiently as possible. Much like a food chain where a predator that is just too successful will end up decimating it's own prey and end up starving to death.

I was just thinking pretty much this whilst reading the thread.

Do recreational players actually want to know about this stuff (much like the HUD's discussion), or will they still play for fun as and when they want ?

All this stuff just puts me off wanting to play any online poker where you don't have the tools to play the regs on a level playing field (actual poker skill aside).

Doesn't leave many options does it ?

The mechanics from the inside are we have a list of players that are not in the group but that are trying to sit the lobbies. All group members are obliged to sit these players whenever they get a lobby. Anyone shirking their responsibilities and trying to freeroll the rest of the group by not battling vs the sit list players gets kicked. The difference between the 1ks vs Coleman and most of the other groups is that you don't actually have to take a chunk of money from the group to get in, you just have to make it not worth our while to play you, so you have to beat the group over a decent sample for more than the rake. Players that are clearly stronger than some of the weaker group members get in much faster, but the reality of the poker economy is that these requirements will have to be tightened as the pool of recs slowly dries up.

This made me chuckle.  They'll have to tighten their requirements to adjust for the continual reduction of the pool of recs that they earn their money from.

Don't worry chaps, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2014, 10:12:20 AM »

If you were able to explain it logically its actually not really bad for rec players, except ofc they are only ever going to play pros, but they'll get there games much quicker
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Graham C
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2014, 10:21:00 AM »

What levels do these cartels start at?  I assume certain levels are a free for all?
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tikay
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« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2014, 10:35:01 AM »

I also found it interesting, all very logical but slightly depressing that things have evolved to ensure that the fish get eaten as quickly and efficiently as possible. Much like a food chain where a predator that is just too successful will end up decimating it's own prey and end up starving to death.

I was just thinking pretty much this whilst reading the thread.

Do recreational players actually want to know about this stuff (much like the HUD's discussion), or will they still play for fun as and when they want ?

All this stuff just puts me off wanting to play any online poker where you don't have the tools to play the regs on a level playing field (actual poker skill aside).

Doesn't leave many options does it ?

The mechanics from the inside are we have a list of players that are not in the group but that are trying to sit the lobbies. All group members are obliged to sit these players whenever they get a lobby. Anyone shirking their responsibilities and trying to freeroll the rest of the group by not battling vs the sit list players gets kicked. The difference between the 1ks vs Coleman and most of the other groups is that you don't actually have to take a chunk of money from the group to get in, you just have to make it not worth our while to play you, so you have to beat the group over a decent sample for more than the rake. Players that are clearly stronger than some of the weaker group members get in much faster, but the reality of the poker economy is that these requirements will have to be tightened as the pool of recs slowly dries up.

This made me chuckle.  They'll have to tighten their requirements to adjust for the continual reduction of the pool of recs that they earn their money from.
Don't worry chaps, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it Smiley

I've read this whole thing with my jaw in drop mode, but gotta say, that did make me laugh. I wonder at what stage the penny will drop?
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« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2014, 10:47:51 AM »

If you were able to explain it logically its actually not really bad for rec players, except ofc they are only ever going to play pros, but they'll get there games much quicker

Recreational players being able to play a mix of players (good, and not so good) is probably pretty significant to whether they continue playing.
My gut instinct, is that it's largely bad for the poker economy, long term.
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« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2014, 11:06:51 AM »

All of this was detailed in Dans blog when he used to update it
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« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2014, 11:40:45 AM »

Instead of stealing money from players Amaya should be concentrating on important stuff, like banning sharkystrator.
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« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2014, 11:49:00 AM »

So which games is it actually safe for us fish to play without having scheming pros taking every advantage they can?
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