The TEMPORARY Nuts - First Hand.......

[dan]

if you're more likely to lose the hand than not, it doesn't matter if the pot odds are right or not, it's got to be a bad tournament strategy. if you change the A8 to two pair which is more likely you are going to loose this more than half the time. if you were second to speak and player one had made the big bet of course you move in. if there's been a bet and an all in raise I call. once there's been a bet, all in raise and all in call I can assume the original bettor is pot commited what ever I do. I'm nost likely to be against a flush draw and two lots of two pair. I could find one of them has  and is free rolling for the flush. tats a worst case but not all that unlikely given the action.

All I am saying is that it's not an automatic call. in a £30 game at the local I would call. if it was a major event I pass because the whole point about deep stack poker is not risking it all on one spin. in an online $30 MTT as this was I call because if I lose it's no big deal. WSOP ME 1st hand I pass because I'm not flipping a coin for 40 000 chips when that wont even be a big blind at the final table.





Adam, 40k would not be a blg blind at the final table but do you honestly think that if you pass you are going to make the final table. if you are too scared to put your chips in when you have the nuts then you are going to get blinded away 5/6 hours later because you will never play a hand.

secondly, i was fortunate enough to play in the main event and not once was i thinking of the final table. i was not thinking about the final 100 i was thinking about the final 560 and if i win 40k in hand 1 ive got a good chance of reaching that target. i could pass and then put all my chips in with a big pair preflop and get outdrawn by 47.

like longy said against a field that big where you have no edge over the field i call, as i would in a £10 tourney where i may have an edge.

[AdamM]

Im not saying I'd be thinking about the final table, I'm just putting in perspective the size of the pot. I personally think that given the position we have and the information at our disposal it's reckless to put all our chips in when we're 50% at verry best but possible as low as 30%. I know we're getting 3/1 so anything above 25% is right but I think there'll be other hands I can play. It's not about being scared it's about styles. somepeople get there chips through big explosive hands and others build gradually.

[bundle]

I Would be interested to see what DC and maybe YO YO and a few of the other PRO players think of this.

I just can't fold this no matter what comp, WSOP or not..   I always ask myself "AM I AHEAD" If yes then the chips go in, no more questions asked.

If i fold and would have won, i will be mad at myself for a month, And would being sitting there looking at my stack thinking "YOU MUPPET YOU WERE AHEAD" and could have played very little the rest of the day.

If i lost, well I had the best hand when the chips went in, no shame in that at all

[JungleCat03]

Im not saying I'd be thinking about the final table, I'm just putting in perspective the size of the pot. I personally think that given the position we have and the information at our disposal it's reckless to put all our chips in when we're 50% at verry best but possible as low as 30%. I know we're getting 3/1 so anything above 25% is right but I think there'll be other hands I can play. It's not about being scared it's about styles. somepeople get there chips through big explosive hands and others build gradually.

This isn't about styles unless your style is to pass up good opportunities then it's a pass. You aren't going to get deep in the WSOP without laying your stack on the line in good situations occasionally (unless you have some major major rush!)

I've run a few calculations and your equity runs close to 40% here(could be better could be worse.) So by passing you are giving up roughly 16000 in chips.

In equity terms it's a similar pass to folding AA to KK on the 1st hand. Please don't tell me you'd pass this!

You'd need a gargantuan size edge over the field to pass this. I'm thinking tyrannasaurus rex size. At the WSOP you can't beleive you have this.

Lots of top pros and theorists including Raymer, Phillips and Sklansky have written material covering these situations before. They delve much deeper into the maths of it all, and unanimously advise callingl.

The only reason to pass is you just want to soak up the atmosphere of the tourney and winning or going deep is not your main aim. Even then i think you are better served taking this gamble, which will give you a much better chance of experiencing what it is like to play long into a big stack tournament.

PLaying amongst a lot of more experienced players, you'll be put in much tougher spots than this. Take this easy decision and call!

[Royal Flush]

gobsmacked is all i have to say!

I have read all the replies and no-one has made a proper case for folding.

People talk about the good players 'edge' this edge comes from knowing when too gamble and when you should pass. Folding the nuts is insane.

I wouldn't even think, my chips are in the pot so fast that they will need a new felt because of the scorch marks!

[AdamM]

well that goes without saying flushie

[Royal Flush]

well that goes without saying flushie

And you say you are not a rock! You pass the nuts!

I would expect to be up against set's rather than draws here, making my edge even bigger!

[AdamM]

I never said I wasnt a rock.

I can loosen up from time to time but 1 - 10 wight to aggressive I'm around a 3. this situation might aswell be tiaky playing holdem and a single opponent playing six card omaha on the same flop.

[NoflopsHomer]

I'd never fold here. And people who said they would because it was the first hand of the WSOP are letting the event become more important than the cards. Someone said last year that x amount of players could end up all-in first hand with AA vs KK and one fifth of them would be cracked. So there would be a number of players out first hand with cracked aces!

If it's the PL Omaha event, then I would fold though.

[thetank]

In each heat of 2,000 at the WSOP I'd expect AA vs KK on one of the tables once every two hands. (ish)

[tikay]

I have PM'd  links to this thread to The Rookie, The Boy Thewy, & Monty Burns. I think I  know what THEY would do. But it IS different for us regular guys, who, with maybe just one chance to play the WSOP Biggie, want to savour ther atmo for a few days. It just is. Mind you, I think I WOULD call. Then again.....

[julian]

i'm afraid my reply isn't very exciting - i'd happily call every time.
outdraws happen, hey i went-in in front!
i've been all-in in big tournies with hands alot lot worse than the nuts 

[elblondie]

This is quite a common situation in Omaha. You are sat in late position with anut straight, but the action in front of you indicates that 1 player has trips and 1 has a flush draw. Between them they have 14 to 17 outs againts your hand (which means that you are less thna 50% to win the hand). You should never 'call' in a scenario like this in a competition risking your existance., but you may be getting correct pot odds in a cash game.
However you are playing hold'em here. How do you know someone has the flush draw? You don't do you. How do you know soemone has trips or even 2 pair. On this board there would have been some huge indicators pre-flop if someone held AA,KK,QQ or even AK. You should have a lot more information to make the decision.
If this was the WSOP main event, I'm sure I would have picked up a reaction on the player who has just been called. I would have to take a lot more things into consideration. I would be looking for lots more clues. However the most likely outcome is that I call.
I would suggest that it is unlikely and unlucky at hold'em to be looking at one flush draw and one set. it is more likely that they both have a set (and this is a great situation against two sets). They could both a flush draw. One may AK and the other QJ clubs. there are countless sceneraios where you are in great shape with a great chance of tripling up.
No guts No glory. Stick it in.
 

[ariston]

I cant believe I answered this already and my post has disappeared. I advocated folding if it was the first hand of the ws for the simple reason someone has already got the nut str8 with you and you are also up against a set/2 pair and the flush draw. This means you are playing an even money pot on less than 50% terms (assuming you are up against boat draws and flush draw). I said it was correct to pass the nut str8 in omaha on the flop so why is it not in this circumstance if you are sure you are against both draws? After I typed all the maths and stuff in I then said I would still call because I am stupid and would scream badbeat when I lost and headed for the rail. (why am I in a raised pot with TJ is what I would be asking so early in the comp)

[snoopy1239]

Also, someone could have