The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

Always laugh at those that suggest a deal was never possible.

None of us know how bad a negotiator TM is/was, and I for one suspect the mass resignations tell us that she has been pretty damn poor.

One wonders if even a half decent used car salesman could have done a better job.......

I don't think there was more available at any point, but seriously, what more do you (or anyone) think a better negotiator could have got?

I really don't know.

I listened on the way home to TM laying out what she has achieved. It seemed to tick all the boxes for me, but I don't know the detail. But  therein lies the obvious weakness, in what she is claiming as a victory yet Brexiteers are leaving toot sweet.

A bit like my golf club got burgled last night and hundreds of years worth of memorabilia and trophies nicked. Our club secretary said we could have done nothing else, we had an alarm system. However members have today found out it was the cheapest on the market and had minimal cctv coverage......get my drift.....

It seemed to tick all the boxes for you. I don’t know why it’s funny to be called Sir and ‘an arse’ but it is :-)

Because I'm polite, and you are!!!

As you can read(and not twist) I said I heard her state headlines in the car, whilst driving, which sounded fine, but without the detail I wasn't sure, but if you do only read the few words you will be misinformed, as you clearly do quite often....sir!

You clearly then didn't read the subsequent posts either as you made the same comment in a later post.......you arse...

Thank you.

I did read the others. I guess it was a bit mischievous to employ the selective memory, it just stuck in my mind as it was the only positive thing about the deal I’d seen from anyone, anywhere.

[TightEnd]

Now giving up something to get something back, in this case sovereignty for a seat at the EU bloc table theoretically leave promised could be replaced by doing your own deals

Except as Dr Liam has found out these are tortuous, take many years and thus the fall back of going onto WTO terms with tariff barriers (increasing your prices paid, lowering company profits which feeds into dividends and pension funds etc) in an "orderly" no deal is the other otion

At a minimum this causes 4-6% lower GDP (source standard and poors) in the medium term with associated rise in unemployment, etc etc plus delays at ports, customs, passport control etc etc

How long that contraction lasts would depend on how long we would take to do trade deals

A Hard Brexiter, for whom controland sovereignty is everything, might advocate no deal as a "clean break".

Even Dr Liam today said though "A bad deal is better than no deal" a reversal of his previous stance

And then there is Ireland


So there you have it, a bad deal which it is said is the only deal in town (no desire on the part of the EU to reopen discussions) or no deal

And everyone fromthe ERG, Corbynistas etc lined up to vote against it for entirely theoretical premises without a thought of the national interest (in my opinion) which is to provide closure and move on without these risk

[TightEnd]

Weekly this is a must read

Marina Hyde spares no one!

In this Westminster battle of the bastards, we’re all going down with the ship
MPs playing the Brexit game of thrones couldn’t give one-eighth of a toss about boring little car-plant workers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/16/westminster-battle-mps-brexit-car-plant-workers?CMP=share_btn_tw

[TightEnd]

 Andrea Leadsom is convening a working group of five Cabinet Brexiteers to re-write the Brexit deal, sources say. Gove, Fox, Mordaunt, Grayling, and Leadsom... They're meeting through next week

this took multi talented civil servants and lawyers many months

now our national train supremo,amongst others, is going to have a go

[Marky147]

Andrea Leadsom is convening a working group of five Cabinet Brexiteers to re-write the Brexit deal, sources say. Gove, Fox, Mordaunt, Grayling, and Leadsom... They're meeting through next week

this took multi talented civil servants and lawyers many months

now our national train supremo,amongst others, is going to have a go

Great to have you back

[kukushkin88]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

[RED-DOG]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

Just out of curiosity, if I click this link I get an 'accept cookies' prompt. I can either accept all or 'manage cookies'

If I opt to manage cookies I get dozens of options, most of which I don't understand and don't have the time to deal with.

This is the same for most websites.

What should I do?

What do you do?

[neeko]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

Just out of curiosity, if I click this link I get an 'accept cookies' prompt. I can either accept all or 'manage cookies'

If I opt to manage cookies I get dozens of options, most of which I don't understand and don't have the time to deal with.

This is the same for most websites.

What should I do?

What do you do?

Now this is something we can blame the EU for.

If vote leave had but scrapping this on the side of a bus then  I would have voted for them.

[Woodsey]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

Just out of curiosity, if I click this link I get an 'accept cookies' prompt. I can either accept all or 'manage cookies'

If I opt to manage cookies I get dozens of options, most of which I don't understand and don't have the time to deal with.

This is the same for most websites.

What should I do?

What do you do?

Now this is something we can blame the EU for.

If vote leave had but scrapping this on the side of a bus then  I would have voted for them.

GDPR has been nothing but a complete pain in the arse at work....

[TightEnd]

Considered reflections on a small faction of the Conservative party, from today's Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/17/theresa-may-class-cowards-crackpots-plotting-against/ …

 

[Tal]

In all this is Amber Rudd's return to the cabinet.

This was just over six months ago:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43944988

Remarkably quick return and in a marginal seat. Is May succession-planning?

[nirvana]

Agreed, it is pretty astonishing that people like Davies and Johnson are even considered for a second as potential leaders. I do think there are a few people within the fantasist/ERG/dunderhead  wing who speak from a position of total integrity and principle, just as there are people on the remain side say Clark, a number of other Tories, and a fair few of the Blairite element of Labour.

Davies and Johnson never clearly or obviously spoke from a position of principle.

[kukushkin88]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

Just out of curiosity, if I click this link I get an 'accept cookies' prompt. I can either accept all or 'manage cookies'

If I opt to manage cookies I get dozens of options, most of which I don't understand and don't have the time to deal with.

This is the same for most websites.

What should I do?

What do you do?

I didn’t but I have accessed the Torygraph website many times.

I’m little short of a clown on this sort of thing. When I can I take advice from people younger and more savvy than I am, when I can’t I accept them all.

[nirvana]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/16/welfare-system-cruel-misogynistic-un-expert-warns-damning-report/

Just out of curiosity, if I click this link I get an 'accept cookies' prompt. I can either accept all or 'manage cookies'

If I opt to manage cookies I get dozens of options, most of which I don't understand and don't have the time to deal with.

This is the same for most websites.

What should I do?

What do you do?

I just accept because, naively perhaps, I assume I'm just being asked permission to collect data that they previously collected without my permission and I'm still here and functioning.

[kukushkin88]

I don't know if the line that this was the only deal possible is true. But it's pretty certain that this is the only deal possible now given the time left - there is no possible way that any debate in parliament could reach a consensus that gave negotiators a clear set of changes required that would then ensure it got voted through.

It feels like the 4 week wait before a vote is pretty sensible as it gives the cockends (excellent) time to think through the consequences of voting this down.

If it goes the way of no deal and it is disastrous it will be interesting to see which party suffers the most electorally. My money would be on Labour suffering most - it looks like they want to vote this down for the devilment of it and I think their tactical rather than principled position on Brexit for the last 2 years is going to hurt them quite badly

What leads you to the conclusion that they’d be voting it down for ‘devilment’? It just seems convenient to think that, rather than evidence based. Why would they be voting it down for devilment, rather than the more obvious reason that it’s an incredibly shit deal that only Adz in the whole country (including May herself) seems to like.

What is shit about it specifically, genuine question, I'm interested. . If you take the view that leaving is totally the wrong thing and a disaster (perfectly reasonable position) how does this deal make the fact we are leaving worse ? I mean it can't, can it

I’ll have to rejoin this later or tomorrow :-(.  Basically it just kicks the massive problems further down the road. While ensuring we pass the point of no return, having still paid no meaningful attention to the aforementioned problems.

and there’ll still be massive problems in the short term and no one (other than Adz) seems to have got anything that they wanted.

Caveat: It’s entirely possible that the voices of those who are pleased with the deal can’t be heard in the racket.

I don’t know if this was anywhere near answering Nirvana/Doobs/SH’s questions? I have more time today, I haven’t read the whole document though. My issues are more with the fundamentals than the detail atm anyway.

Thanks to Doobs for the rapidly produced synopsis, I hope it didn’t compromise your poker poker too much?