The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[hhyftrftdr]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

A situation where the Government fought for what the electorate voted for. A Brexit that worked!

Yes but what exactly does that mean?

The electorate voted for lies and an impossible dream. No matter how hard it fights, the government wont get a deal with all the benefits of EU membership without any of the obligations. That deal isn't on offer.

What 'Exactly' (because when you are making a deal you have to be exact about the terms) What exactly should the government ask for, that we haven't got in the current deal but that we have the bargaining power to get?


What should have happened is the brexiteers should have told the truth and said to the electorate "Look, if we leave it will be really difficult for a few years" T,hen if the people voted for that we should have just left.

I for one never believed it would be easy.

There were lies and miscommunications from both sides. Only a fool could fail to see that. The choice was leave or stay at no point did I think that leave did not mean leave in it's entirety. I was happy with that. The next few years would be all about the party policies based on the next general election manifestos. The electorate would then decide who's policies are best WRT the EU.

IMO when we voted to leave we should have all stood behind our great country united as a single undivided nation to negotiate with the EU. I dont honestly know if that would have worked but as soon as we stood divided the upperhand was not with us.

What I cant get over or out of my head is that there are people who are happy with the way things were/are in within the EU. It is full of beaurocracy that just doesnt work for all European nations. There are far too many diverse cultural differences, whats good for one nation is not necessarrily good for another.

I think the follwoing 2 quotes somes it up for me first being from Churchill;

"If you're going through hell, keep going.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. Never, never, never give up."

and the second often accredited to Einstein;

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

This has to be a joke, right?

[nirvana]

It is a sad state of affairs when both major parties are more interested in personal gain, power and narrow ideology rather than the national interest.

Setting aside the issue of people being in politics having a narrow ideology (I assume by narrow you mean extreme in some form or other). Being passionate about your beliefs is a quality to be admired even if we don’t agree with them.

Who would you say was the last political leader who was in the role for predominantly altruistic reasons? Someone who had a strong belief in their policies and was prepared to make sacrifices to deliver them.

Working backwards
TM - tbh, I think she is well-intentioned. She just seems to lack any beliefs.
DC - let’s not even go there
GB - well-intentioned, had his beliefs, didn’t really have the skills.
TB - worse than Cameron in terms of self-interest
JM - a cross between May and Brown

So we’re back to the most divisive figure in recent political history...

She had strong beliefs and strong skills and was, I believe, a true servant of her country. (I don’t agree with a lot of what she did, but she was a colossus in comparison to those who have followed her. And in comparison to those that went immediately before her (Wilson, Heath, Callaghan)

Think you dismiss Wilson a little too readily there..ask Tikay, hell have been quite mature when Wilson was in charge

I’ll grant you Wilson, but with some reservations about his decision to step down and the sense that had he been around in these ever more inquisitive times he might not have fared quite so well.
His list of legislation introduced is impressive though, a man of his times, the 60’s was a decade of opportunity and he drove us through that period.

Having mentioned Wilson though, I do agree that Thatcher stands out in terms of her absolute determination to see through an agenda. It was an agenda that was fundamentally unpopular and was very likely to see her elected for a single term only. Agree she did this out of belief and conviction but I'm not sure there was much in the way of sacrifice unless we count the fact that she may have been aware she might only last for one term.

[bobAlike]

Does anyone else feel that during the last 18 months or so that we are being railroaded in to Brexit failure?

Even as a Brexiteer, when TM was appointed PM I thought that it would be a good thing that as she was a remainer she would could bring some balance in to what could be a shit show, and is now proved to be just that... At no point has she shown any true leadership skills other than trying to stay in power.

I have never been one for conspiracy theory but I just cant help but feel that the EU and high ranking remainers have engineered the current situation. I'm starting to feel that it will just not happen now

What other situation could there be?

A situation where the Government fought for what the electorate voted for. A Brexit that worked!

Yes but what exactly does that mean?

The electorate voted for lies and an impossible dream. No matter how hard it fights, the government wont get a deal with all the benefits of EU membership without any of the obligations. That deal isn't on offer.

What 'Exactly' (because when you are making a deal you have to be exact about the terms) What exactly should the government ask for, that we haven't got in the current deal but that we have the bargaining power to get?


What should have happened is the brexiteers should have told the truth and said to the electorate "Look, if we leave it will be really difficult for a few years" T,hen if the people voted for that we should have just left.

I for one never believed it would be easy.

There were lies and miscommunications from both sides. Only a fool could fail to see that. The choice was leave or stay at no point did I think that leave did not mean leave in it's entirety. I was happy with that. The next few years would be all about the party policies based on the next general election manifestos. The electorate would then decide who's policies are best WRT the EU.

IMO when we voted to leave we should have all stood behind our great country united as a single undivided nation to negotiate with the EU. I dont honestly know if that would have worked but as soon as we stood divided the upperhand was not with us.

What I cant get over or out of my head is that there are people who are happy with the way things were/are in within the EU. It is full of beaurocracy that just doesnt work for all European nations. There are far too many diverse cultural differences, whats good for one nation is not necessarrily good for another.

I think the follwoing 2 quotes somes it up for me first being from Churchill;

"If you're going through hell, keep going.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. Never, never, never give up."

and the second often accredited to Einstein;

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

This has to be a joke, right?

I dont see our nation as a joke!

[nirvana]

I've seen this before but a good reminder that Owen Jones can come across extremely well when he wants to and that some of the leave arguments are, imo, convincing in terms of enhancing democracy and understandably attractive to people who are instinctively anti corporate, anti oligarchy

Naturally, this is before the referendum when some people still found it possible to be civil when discussing the issue

[MintTrav]

Standard and Poor's damning verdict on a 'No Deal Brexit:

- Unemployment doubles
- Every household £2700 worse off within a year
- Inflation at 5%
- A recession as long as after the financial crisis

---

Yeah but that's just experts. Remember we can make it all not happen through positive thinking and visualisation.

[RickBFA]

Its very house of cards

Thursday: Rees-Mogg calls for no confidence vote on May


-Friday morning: ERG - We've got 48 letters plus a dozen


-Friday late morning - We're almost at 48


-Friday afternoon - We'll get them next week

-Monday - Silence

DUP seem in no mood to cooperate with May. Once they have a view it’s rather difficult to reason with them.

If they pull out of the agreement to vote with the Government, it could be them that force a General Election and May’s downfall ?

[Doobs]

Its very house of cards

Thursday: Rees-Mogg calls for no confidence vote on May


-Friday morning: ERG - We've got 48 letters plus a dozen


-Friday late morning - We're almost at 48


-Friday afternoon - We'll get them next week

-Monday - Silence

DUP seem in no mood to cooperate with May. Once they have a view it’s rather difficult to reason with them.

If they pull out of the agreement to vote with the Government, it could be them that force a General Election and May’s downfall ?

I was enjoying the ERG's failure to get 48 signatures a bit too much.  If the ERG weren't aware previously that their vision of Brexit  has got nowhere near enough support in parliament, they should be now.   

They were all so smug when they thought they were going to get the 48 signatures in a few hours.   

[TightEnd]

The ERG's apparent failure - once again - to get to 48 votes has performed a useful public service: highlighting the absence of Parliamentary support for no deal. The real alternative, unpalatable as it may be from a democratic standpoint, is Remain.

[TightEnd]

what happens next?

[TightEnd]

Interesting view of withdrawal agreement from Oliver Norgrove, Leaver & EEA advocate

http://www.norgroveblog.co.uk/2018/11/my-assessment-of-withdrawal-agreement.html

[TightEnd]

Will Hutton says

Key implication of Fixed-term Parliaments Act is that it kills the effectiveness of no confidence votes. Unless 125 Tories vote with opposition parties to give two thirds majority no chance of an election. T

Thus referendums become vital way out.

Labour’s position on no second referendum is incoherent.

[TightEnd]

Chorley tries to get head around Labour's Brexit policy...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brace-yourselves-that-labour-brexit-policy-in-full-rcnb29hbp

[TightEnd]

Latest news on the Revolt

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/19/backbench-brexiteers-going-topple-theresa-may-went-wrong/ …

[TightEnd]

With or without the 48 names, the Brexit hardliners have shown their true worth over the last two years and it's not a flattering picture:

https://www.ft.com/content/15d51a5e-ebdf-11e8-8180-9cf212677a57

[TightEnd]

a long read but a fascinating one

"Trump and Brexit are entwined. We are in desperate need of our own investigation into foreign interference in the 2016 referendum. The full case set out in incredible detail by Carole Cadwalla here."

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/11/16/why-britain-needs-its-own-mueller/