The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

MP’s have demonstrated an unwillingness to vote through a deal on Brexit, however good or bad it is, the more May tried to find a compromise the worse it got.

Whether it was on genuine principles or for purely self indulgent party political reasons, a compromise deal isn’t going to get through. The combo of Tory right wingers and Corbyn putting the national interest second will ensure a vote will never get through parliament.

MP’s also want no deal off the table.

Basically it’s a way to force through remain by default.

How about this to break the deadlock.

A referendum question which gives completely clear picture of the will of the people.

Something like either 1) remain or 2) leave with no deal on WTO terms.

There would be no room for anyone to say “people don’t know what they are voting for”. It would be absolutely clear.

Get both of the main party leaders to commit to supporting the decision, either way and it will get through a vote in Parliament after.

I can’t see another way of resolving the situation and ensure the will of the people is seen to be respected.

This is the post

Not really wanted a referendum, but if there is one with no deal possible then

a) Leave no deal
b) Remain

and not

a) Leave no deal
b) Leave deal only
c) remain

seems fairest to me

try and narrow down how many of the 17.4m meant leave whatever or leave only if we have a deal,

as of course the original referendumquestion framing didn't tell us much.

Brexit never meant Brexit. Brexit meant diffferent types of Brexit to different people (especially in Parliament!), one of the main reasons we are where we are now

[MANTIS01]

MP’s have demonstrated an unwillingness to vote through a deal on Brexit, however good or bad it is, the more May tried to find a compromise the worse it got.

Whether it was on genuine principles or for purely self indulgent party political reasons, a compromise deal isn’t going to get through. The combo of Tory right wingers and Corbyn putting the national interest second will ensure a vote will never get through parliament.

MP’s also want no deal off the table.

Basically it’s a way to force through remain by default.

How about this to break the deadlock.

A referendum question which gives completely clear picture of the will of the people.

Something like either 1) remain or 2) leave with no deal on WTO terms.

There would be no room for anyone to say “people don’t know what they are voting for”. It would be absolutely clear.

Get both of the main party leaders to commit to supporting the decision, either way and it will get through a vote in Parliament after.

I can’t see another way of resolving the situation and ensure the will of the people is seen to be respected.

This is the post

Not really wanted a referendum, but if there is one with no deal possible then

a) Leave no deal
b) Remain

and not

a) Leave no deal
b) Leave deal only
c) remain

seems fairest to me

try and narrow down how many of the 17.4m meant leave whatever or leave only if we have a deal,

as of course the original referendumquestion framing didn't tell us much.

Brexit never meant Brexit. Brexit meant diffferent types of Brexit to different people (especially in Parliament!), one of the main reasons we are where we are now

The problem with this is 100% of people recognised some kind of EU reform was required

So if we put a) Leave with No Deal on the ballot paper we should balance that option with b) Remain with No Reform

That would leave us with a different result I think

[TightEnd]

well even most remainers would want reform, if by some slim chance we stayed in

Maybe that would be part of a "revoke" negotiation with the EU "we'll revoke if you do a, b c" under a future leftish coalition government

so i don't think remain no reform is realistic

and leave no deal is not feasible (big economic damage, we are not ready) no matter what the WTO Brexit idealists at any cost would like.

so we go round in circles again

[aaron1867]

I guess the results prove that despite many feeling that Brexiteers didn't understand what they were voting for in the first place, they obviously did. That, or they didn't care anyway.

It certainly blows away some arguments that have been posted on here, and whilst the nation is clearly still split, the original vote should be honoured, regardless.......

What on earth is this 😂

If anything, last nights say the actual opposite. As already posted, more voted for remain parties than leave parties.

[Pokerpops]

well even most remainers would want reform, if by some slim chance we stayed in

Maybe that would be part of a "revoke" negotiation with the EU "we'll revoke if you do a, b c" under a future leftish coalition government

so i don't think remain no reform is realistic

and leave no deal is not feasible (big economic damage, we are not ready) no matter what the WTO Brexit idealists at any cost would like.

so we go round in circles again

This seems so blindingly obvious but how would you make it happen? Cameron tried and failed to get change pre-referendum it feels too late to start to do it now.
Tbf even if we could start now with BoJo or whoever at the helm what changes would be acceptable to the ERG and their like.

[BigAdz]

One thing I can be pretty sure of without the usual, I'm an idiot comments, is that the Lib Dems are basically the Pity Party.

No one wants to vote Con/Lab after their antics over the last few months.

Even I didn't vote brexit party, so it is possible many other brexiteers didnt either. obviously Aaron will put me right on that and probably tell me I don't vote for who I voted for to boot. I wanted to see more than just a.headline single.policy party, and whilst I accept the Lib Dems are seen as the remain party, I voted for them because they weren't the big two. I suspect, again, I may not be the only one.

[RickBFA]

well even most remainers would want reform, if by some slim chance we stayed in

Maybe that would be part of a "revoke" negotiation with the EU "we'll revoke if you do a, b c" under a future leftish coalition government

so i don't think remain no reform is realistic

and leave no deal is not feasible (big economic damage, we are not ready) no matter what the WTO Brexit idealists at any cost would like.

so we go round in circles again

Given MP’s will not tolerate a compromise, it seems to me only remain or no deal are left.

Like it or not, and however disastrous you think it may be, if the public voted clearly for a no deal exit over remain, then the politicians would be duty bound to follow the clear will of the majority.

I’ve said it before - sometimes economic considerations come second to the democratic will of the people (stupid or otherwise).

[aaron1867]

People have made some good points about a second referendum. I actually think it would bring the country together, because it would finally bring a conclusion to it all.

I think the genuine sticking point is what should be on the ballot paper. I'm not sure it should be remain v leave on WTO. I'd imagine there are plenty of folk out there who voted Brexit, who'd like to leave with a deal. I think that would polarise those voters, and that the leave vote would lose out. I genuinely want it to be as fair as possible, and to also please leave voters who wouldn't want a second vote.

Someone made a really good suggestion on this thread, saying that the ballot paper should be Remain v Leave, with an option for leave voters to then choose between Deal or no deal. I genuinely think this is something a lot of people could get behind. You now have a clearer vision to your vote.

I only think that this could happen though, if Labour finally push through a position on this OR a Brexit voting MP's grind their teeth and say this is the only option.

This is genuinely the only way that Brexit happens. But for some reason Brexit voters don't believe this. There's no majority for a deal or no deal, so a second vote, on a clearer vote, is going to get Brexit over the line.

[aaron1867]

One thing I can be pretty sure of without the usual, I'm an idiot comments, is that the Lib Dems are basically the Pity Party.

No one wants to vote Con/Lab after their antics over the last few months.

Even I didn't vote brexit party, so it is possible many other brexiteers didnt either. obviously Aaron will put me right on that and probably tell me I don't vote for who I voted for to boot. I wanted to see more than just a.headline single.policy party, and whilst I accept the Lib Dems are seen as the remain party, I voted for them because they weren't the big two. I suspect, again, I may not be the only one.

I don’t see how the LD’s or any other party are the pity party. People vote LD for what they stand for, which also happens to be stopping Brexit. I’ve seen lots of media coverage of folk also saying their vote wasn’t to do with Brexit.

But all last night shows, is that the country is still divided & there’s still a significant appetite for both staying in the EU & a hard Brexit.

[MANTIS01]

Offering voters an option to choose Leave with a deal doesn’t work...

If you include a deal every voter would need to read and understand it or we’re back to square one of people not knowing what they’re voting for, ill informed etc...

...and as Remain have pointed out several times most voters are stupid so we won’t understand complicated euro deal jibber jabber and it’ll all go tits up again

[RED-DOG]

Offering voters an option to choose Leave with a deal doesn’t work...

If you include a deal every voter would need to read and understand it or we’re back to square one of people not knowing what they’re voting for, ill informed etc...

...and as Remain have pointed out several times most voters are stupid so we won’t understand complicated euro deal jibber jabber and it’ll all go tits up again

I don't understand. 

[kukushkin88]

Offering voters an option to choose Leave with a deal doesn’t work...

If you include a deal every voter would need to read and understand it or we’re back to square one of people not knowing what they’re voting for, ill informed etc...

...and as Remain have pointed out several times most voters are stupid so we won’t understand complicated euro deal jibber jabber and it’ll all go tits up again

It’s like a strange backwards version of satire, where he ridicules his own position. It’s a Mantis staple.

He’s right if he means that voters being well informed would be a disaster for the Leave vote.


I don't understand.  

Apologies for the epic quote fail.

[Mark_Porter]

One thing that is hugely encouraging for the country - Tommy Robinson squirming away with his tail between his legs.

The public are not stupid and have heard what he has to say and categorically said "no, thank you". I think I have seen more of him and his views than almost anyone else in the press so the idea he is being hushed up is total rubbish.

We might be unsure of where we stand at the moment but, one thing we can agree on, Tommy and his far right crowd are not the answer we are looking for.

[dakky]

People have made some good points about a second referendum. I actually think it would bring the country together, because it would finally bring a conclusion to it all.

I think the genuine sticking point is what should be on the ballot paper. I'm not sure it should be remain v leave on WTO. I'd imagine there are plenty of folk out there who voted Brexit, who'd like to leave with a deal. I think that would polarise those voters, and that the leave vote would lose out. I genuinely want it to be as fair as possible, and to also please leave voters who wouldn't want a second vote.

Single transferable vote would mean they wouldn't miss out. But as stated we would be in a spot with people not knowing what the agreed deal really was

[RED-DOG]

Offering voters an option to choose Leave with a deal doesn’t work...

If you include a deal every voter would need to read and understand it or we’re back to square one of people not knowing what they’re voting for, ill informed etc...

...and as Remain have pointed out several times most voters are stupid so we won’t understand complicated euro deal jibber jabber and it’ll all go tits up again

It’s like a strange backwards version of satire, where he ridicules his own position. It’s a Mantis staple.

He’s right if he means that voters being well informed would be a disaster for the Leave vote.


I don't understand.  

Apologies for the epic quote fail.

I was joking too. He said they wouldn't understand, so I said I didn't understand, but then you didn't understand.....