The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

A & E waiting rooms gonna have to be kitted out like a first class cabin so everyone can have a lie down while they wait

He wasn't in an A & E waiting room, he was in a treatment room after being assessed and treated already - they were waiting to admit him to the hospital.

They should have had a bed for him while he waited to be admitted onto the paedeatric ward but they did have chairs.

He evidently found it more comfortable to lie on a stack of coats while he waited than sit in a chair.

If it was an adult in the same situation - and there probably were many of those on the same night as this in that A&E - then the wait to be admitted is bad, but nobody would think it was particularly out of the ordinary.

It was a stupid journalistic trick to tug at emotions rather than a sensible jounalistic article - like if those super busy nights were increasingly common because of austerity - but people are always going to care more about a picture of a child than they are about a table full of numbers.

Having said that, kudos to Johnson for managing to handle it in the worst possible way.

Last line is great and mirrors my immediate thoughts. Was thinking of another pic I saw today of a baby having a snooze in a & e

The NHS is absolutely on its knees though. I’ve been spending loads of time in hospital recently and it’s carnage. There are wards where people recovering from having diseased organs removed ring their emergency assistance alarm and the only people in a position to help immediately are other patients, has to be seen to be believed. Looks like I won’t need to be in again for a while and I’m grateful for that but I feel desperate for anyone and everyone who is in hospital at the moment.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ApertureImage/status/1204022937478684674/photo/1

Looks like it stayed at ~1.3% under May.

[RED-DOG]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

[kukushkin88]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

[Pokerpops]

A & E waiting rooms gonna have to be kitted out like a first class cabin so everyone can have a lie down while they wait

He wasn't in an A & E waiting room, he was in a treatment room after being assessed and treated already - they were waiting to admit him to the hospital.

They should have had a bed for him while he waited to be admitted onto the paedeatric ward but they did have chairs.

He evidently found it more comfortable to lie on a stack of coats while he waited than sit in a chair.

If it was an adult in the same situation - and there probably were many of those on the same night as this in that A&E - then the wait to be admitted is bad, but nobody would think it was particularly out of the ordinary.

It was a stupid journalistic trick to tug at emotions rather than a sensible jounalistic article - like if those super busy nights were increasingly common because of austerity - but people are always going to care more about a picture of a child than they are about a table full of numbers.

Having said that, kudos to Johnson for managing to handle it in the worst possible way.

Last line is great and mirrors my immediate thoughts. Was thinking of another pic I saw today of a baby having a snooze in a & e

The NHS is absolutely on its knees though. I’ve been spending loads of time in hospital recently and it’s carnage. There are wards where people recovering from having diseased organs removed ring their emergency assistance alarm and the only people in a position to help immediately are other patients, has to be seen to be believed. Looks like I won’t need to be in again for a while and I’m grateful for that but I feel desperate for anyone and everyone who is in hospital at the moment.

Is the NHS truly on it’s knees though? It may not be functioning at peak performance but the over-riding principle of free treatment for all at their time of need remains key.
Isolated incidents such as the one seized upon yesterday do no more than highlight a specific problem at a specific location.
Do we know why there was no bed available? No.
Could it have been a simple failing in the management of resources at a local level? Yes.
Is that evidence of government failure to care about the NHS? Of course not.

As to funding, throughout this decade we have devoted 7.3-7.5% of GDP to the NHS. That figure is higher than in any previous period, under any party of government.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/health-and-social-care-explained/nhs-reform-timeline/

[kukushkin88]

A & E waiting rooms gonna have to be kitted out like a first class cabin so everyone can have a lie down while they wait

He wasn't in an A & E waiting room, he was in a treatment room after being assessed and treated already - they were waiting to admit him to the hospital.

They should have had a bed for him while he waited to be admitted onto the paedeatric ward but they did have chairs.

He evidently found it more comfortable to lie on a stack of coats while he waited than sit in a chair.

If it was an adult in the same situation - and there probably were many of those on the same night as this in that A&E - then the wait to be admitted is bad, but nobody would think it was particularly out of the ordinary.

It was a stupid journalistic trick to tug at emotions rather than a sensible jounalistic article - like if those super busy nights were increasingly common because of austerity - but people are always going to care more about a picture of a child than they are about a table full of numbers.

Having said that, kudos to Johnson for managing to handle it in the worst possible way.

Last line is great and mirrors my immediate thoughts. Was thinking of another pic I saw today of a baby having a snooze in a & e

The NHS is absolutely on its knees though. I’ve been spending loads of time in hospital recently and it’s carnage. There are wards where people recovering from having diseased organs removed ring their emergency assistance alarm and the only people in a position to help immediately are other patients, has to be seen to be believed. Looks like I won’t need to be in again for a while and I’m grateful for that but I feel desperate for anyone and everyone who is in hospital at the moment.

Is the NHS truly on it’s knees though? It may not be functioning at peak performance but the over-riding principle of free treatment for all at their time of need remains key.
Isolated incidents such as the one seized upon yesterday do no more than highlight a specific problem at a specific location.
Do we know why there was no bed available? No.
Could it have been a simple failing in the management of resources at a local level? Yes.
Is that evidence of government failure to care about the NHS? Of course not.

As to funding, throughout this decade we have devoted 7.3-7.5% of GDP to the NHS. That figure is higher than in any previous period, under any party of government.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/health-and-social-care-explained/nhs-reform-timeline/

The important figure for funding as it relates to quality of service will be the actual amount, rather than the % of GDP. We’ve had nine years of the lowest % increases there have ever been. The twitter pic/chart above is accurate. The debate shouldn’t be about that kid, of course we don’t now any of the actual detail.

[Pokerpops]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

Where do we reduce spending in order to give the NHS all the extra money?
Or,
how do we make the NHS more efficient in it’s operation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/06/nhs-lord-carter-hospitals-wasting-millions-pounds

[kukushkin88]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

Where do we reduce spending in order to give the NHS all the extra money?
Or,
how do we make the NHS more efficient in it’s operation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/06/nhs-lord-carter-hospitals-wasting-millions-pounds

I think massive and sustained investment will be needed regardless, we’d all support trying to spend this money efficiently but it’s overrated as part of the overall problem. I don’t think anything should need to be cut, we could just have similar levels of public investment to a country like Germany.

[Jon MW]

...

The important figure for funding as it relates to quality of service will be the actual amount, rather than the % of GDP. We’ve had nine years of the lowest % increases there have ever been. The twitter pic/chart above is accurate. The debate shouldn’t be about that kid, of course we don’t now any of the actual detail.

Yes - and that's where the problem arises.

When Labour had an ever expanding economy they raised the absolute value every year - when the recession hit the last thing you can take money off is the NHS; hence why austerity hit everything else so badly. But obviously you can 'increase' the funding at a slower rate to make some difference.

This article https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/70-years-of-nhs-spending#then-and-now suggests what can be done to fix the NHS budget and it's easily doable.

But it also shows that the 'fixed' NHS budget (as a proportion of GDP) is growning at about twice the rate as our actual long term GDP growth.

i.e. we can fairly easily 'fix' the NHS now, but at some point down the line the decision is going to have to be made to how to prioritise resources because we can't just keep pumping an ever increasing proportion of our GDP for ever into it.

[kukushkin88]

...

The important figure for funding as it relates to quality of service will be the actual amount, rather than the % of GDP. We’ve had nine years of the lowest % increases there have ever been. The twitter pic/chart above is accurate. The debate shouldn’t be about that kid, of course we don’t now any of the actual detail.

Yes - and that's where the problem arises.

When Labour had an ever expanding economy they raised the absolute value every year - when the recession hit the last thing you can take money off is the NHS; hence why austerity hit everything else so badly. But obviously you can 'increase' the funding at a slower rate to make some difference.

This article https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/70-years-of-nhs-spending#then-and-now suggests what can be done to fix the NHS budget and it's easily doable.

But it also shows that the 'fixed' NHS budget (as a proportion of GDP) is growning at about twice the rate as our actual long term GDP growth.

i.e. we can fairly easily 'fix' the NHS now, but at some point down the line the decision is going to have to be made to how to prioritise resources because we can't just keep pumping an ever increasing proportion of our GDP for ever into it.

It’s certainly a good point that Blair benefitted from a booming economy, Thatcher did as well of course but didn’t spend the money on the NHS. Do you think austerity contributed to how poorly our economy has performed since 2010?

[nirvana]

If we want to have an even more highly resourced NHS then just tax everyone more. Its really quite simple but even Labour won't propose that.. quite ridiculous.

[kukushkin88]

If we want to have an even more highly resourced NHS then just tax everyone more. Its really quite simple but even Labour won't propose that.. quite ridiculous.

I completely agree, although ‘even more highly resourced’ is an inaccurate framing of an otherwise good point. Remember all the staff have had their pay cut in real terms through that time as well.

[nirvana]

If we want to have an even more highly resourced NHS then just tax everyone more. Its really quite simple but even Labour won't propose that.. quite ridiculous.

I completely agree, although ‘even more highly resourced’ is an inaccurate framing of an otherwise good point. Remember all the staff have had their pay cut in real terms through that time as well.

Its unarguably very highly resourced.. it may not be enough for many peoples visions of what the service should be and that is a matter for proper debate. Unfortunately the chance of a proper debate and concensus in our system is almost nil.

[RED-DOG]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

Where do we reduce spending in order to give the NHS all the extra money?
Or,
how do we make the NHS more efficient in it’s operation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/06/nhs-lord-carter-hospitals-wasting-millions-pounds

Higher taxes.

Lower wages and 'perks' for politicians.

Better claw-back schemes for proceeds of crime.

Legalise, tax and regulate the sale of cannabis.

And yes. Make the NHS more efficient. More Doctors/Nurses/equipment/medicines and less people with fat pay-cheques in management.

[kukushkin88]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

Where do we reduce spending in order to give the NHS all the extra money?
Or,
how do we make the NHS more efficient in it’s operation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/06/nhs-lord-carter-hospitals-wasting-millions-pounds

Higher taxes.

Lower wages and 'perks' for politicians.

Better claw-back schemes for proceeds of crime.

Legalise, tax and regulate the sale of cannabis.

And yes. Make the NHS more efficient. More Doctors/Nurses/equipment/medicines and less people with fat pay-cheques in management.

Plenty of good ideas, also, let’s make it illegal for private citizens to rent accommodation to other private citizens. We could fund a ton of stuff with the proceeds.

[Jon MW]

We need to spend more on the NHS.

Whatever it takes.

This was also the case nine years ago and at every time since. Ending the adequate funding of the NHS seems like such a flawed way to combat a massive global economic downturn.

Where do we reduce spending in order to give the NHS all the extra money?
Or,
how do we make the NHS more efficient in it’s operation?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/06/nhs-lord-carter-hospitals-wasting-millions-pounds

Higher taxes.

Lower wages and 'perks' for politicians.

Better claw-back schemes for proceeds of crime.

Legalise, tax and regulate the sale of cannabis.

And yes. Make the NHS more efficient. More Doctors/Nurses/equipment/medicines and less people with fat pay-cheques in management.

The total cost of politicians renumeration is less than 0.2% of the NHS budget, potentially taxing cannabis sales could raise up to 0.5% of the NHS budget. NHS efficiency is hard to measure but I'd be surprised if there was a huge amount you could save - I'd start with procurement practises rather than management costs though.

Basically apart from the open ended option of 'more tax' the amount extra you'd get to spend would be such a low proportion of the existing budget that it wouldn't be enough to change anything.

...
Plenty of good ideas, also, let’s make it illegal for private citizens to rent accommodation to other private citizens. We could fund a ton of stuff with the proceeds.

How does that raise extra money for the NHS?