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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180689 times)
dakky
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« Reply #4275 on: June 28, 2016, 10:31:23 PM »

No the blairites are in the minority of the 170 who showed no confidence in jc today. it includes genuine left wing mps, not just red Tories. Many of those would be seen as core Labour to any Labour voter.


Corbyn is driving his own agenda. If he truly cared for this country he woke step aside to give Labour a fighting chance.

If an election was called and he was in situ God knows who id vote for

The "plot" against him was hatched ages ago and this was their chance to enact it 13th June http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/

The savinglabour.com domain was registered Friday! There's been some meticulous planning in the wings.


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dakky
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« Reply #4276 on: June 28, 2016, 10:35:31 PM »

If people were able to re-frame and

a) not see a party leader's sole purpose as getting elected
b) think more long term

We'd all be a lot better off.

Farage for example, has shifted the whole debate around immigration to a completely different place than it was without even a sniff at power - so much so that all parties pretty much tallk his language about controlling immigration even though their actions would suggest they don't really want to.

Corbyn (or his like) with time, could do the same in more beneficial areas. The important thing, for real change, is to win the debate about where the debate should take place - not whether you're in power or not.


I agree with this entirely.  It's the reason I voted for him in the leadership election. I didn't really think he would win in 2020 but I figured he could do a lot of work with the party to shape who they are, what they are doing and all the other questions. It really was to bring new ideas and new ways of thinking into the party. I envisaged him either leaving before the election for someone to bring everything together or after the 2020 election. I truly believed that labour winning that election wasn't a possibility, but they could have in 2025.
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PokerBroker
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« Reply #4277 on: June 28, 2016, 11:00:18 PM »

Jesus how cringe was Farage? It's like waltzing over to a woman you really want to take on a date and saying "fancy a curry you fat cow?". You prob won't be having sex with that woman anytime soon. Being ballsy is one thing but a bit of diplomacy is more fitting for a diplomat methinks.

Anyway, just occurred to me that as poker players you are always chatting about the long term. Nah Mantis you are shit at poker because you haven't played a million hands over a thousand years. So funny how you guys have been making certain predictions from the stock market results the morning after the night before.

Good post and ties in with what Nirvana was saying about long term thinking and not thinking about the winning of losing or where we are now it's about where we could be in the future.  I think of politics the exact same way.  

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nirvana
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« Reply #4278 on: June 28, 2016, 11:02:28 PM »

If people were able to re-frame and

a) not see a party leader's sole purpose as getting elected
b) think more long term

We'd all be a lot better off.

Farage for example, has shifted the whole debate around immigration to a completely different place than it was without even a sniff at power - so much so that all parties pretty much tallk his language about controlling immigration even though their actions would suggest they don't really want to.

Corbyn (or his like) with time, could do the same in more beneficial areas. The important thing, for real change, is to win the debate about where the debate should take place - not whether you're in power or not.


I agree with this entirely.  It's the reason I voted for him in the leadership election. I didn't really think he would win in 2020 but I figured he could do a lot of work with the party to shape who they are, what they are doing and all the other questions. It really was to bring new ideas and new ways of thinking into the party. I envisaged him either leaving before the election for someone to bring everything together or after the 2020 election. I truly believed that labour winning that election wasn't a possibility, but they could have in 2025.

Ha, now we are two- this is how it starts :-)
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George2Loose
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« Reply #4279 on: June 28, 2016, 11:03:03 PM »

Idealism rarely wins
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George2Loose
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« Reply #4280 on: June 28, 2016, 11:04:20 PM »

you can look at it another way that if labour had the right Miliband- they win the election there's never a referendum and Farage is in the wilderness for another 20 years.

Power much more important than ideology

That's just results orientation based on the outcome you desired. I'm not trying to backfit anything - I'm saying there's more to leadership than whether you win or lose.

My feelings as usual, I'm talking on a different plane to the common man

Its not results orientated. His rhetoric may have won the referendum but it was the divisions in the Tory party that got him the vote not the long game.

And Corbyn could be in charge for 20 years and he would still be unelectable
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dakky
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« Reply #4281 on: June 28, 2016, 11:06:43 PM »

who did you vote for in leadership election g2l?
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« Reply #4282 on: June 28, 2016, 11:11:53 PM »

Idealism rarely wins

But it's not about winning.  You must see that?  

It's bout doing what is right, and changing the shit storm we are stuck in the middle of.  Neoliberalism is the problem.  
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nirvana
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« Reply #4283 on: June 28, 2016, 11:25:40 PM »

you can look at it another way that if labour had the right Miliband- they win the election there's never a referendum and Farage is in the wilderness for another 20 years.

Power much more important than ideology

That's just results orientation based on the outcome you desired. I'm not trying to backfit anything - I'm saying there's more to leadership than whether you win or lose.

My feelings as usual, I'm talking on a different plane to the common man

Its not results orientated. His rhetoric may have won the referendum but it was the divisions in the Tory party that got him the vote not the long game.

And Corbyn could be in charge for 20 years and he would still be unelectable

Bedders, I'm glad you know what you're talking about :-)
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david3103
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« Reply #4284 on: June 28, 2016, 11:41:10 PM »

you can look at it another way that if labour had the right Miliband- they win the election there's never a referendum and Farage is in the wilderness for another 20 years.

Power much more important than ideology

That's just results orientation based on the outcome you desired. I'm not trying to backfit anything - I'm saying there's more to leadership than whether you win or lose.

My feelings as usual, I'm talking on a different plane to the common man

Not sure that Milliband, D would have made enough difference tbh. Labour lost what was left of their soul when John Smith died and Blair moved in.



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« Reply #4285 on: June 28, 2016, 11:42:52 PM »

So when the people of, say Cardiff, protest claiming they didn't vote for this so, even though they lost, it shouldn't happen to them, what is their argument to the people of Cardiff that did vote for it?

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Ledders
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« Reply #4286 on: June 28, 2016, 11:48:03 PM »

None really. They're throwing a hissy fit and wasting their time and energy
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George2Loose
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« Reply #4287 on: June 28, 2016, 11:49:13 PM »

who did you vote for in leadership election g2l?

I'm not a member of any party but I'm pragmatic enough not to vote for Corbyn.

Saying that none of the Labour candidates were inspirational. As much as people despise Blair he was a leader and had charisma.

Chuka is the shining star of the party. Shame he withdrew his candidacy
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dakky
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« Reply #4288 on: June 28, 2016, 11:54:30 PM »

who did you vote for in leadership election g2l?

I'm not a member of any party but I'm pragmatic enough not to vote for Corbyn.

Saying that none of the Labour candidates were inspirational. As much as people despise Blair he was a leader and had charisma.

Chuka is the shining star of the party. Shame he withdrew his candidacy
Oh I thought you were for some reason.

My guess is he realised what a shitstorm he would be signing up for with no real hope of winning in 2020 so reserved his run for the future.

Blair was super charismatic, and he was really very very popular. He did win three elections. People forget that.
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bobby1
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« Reply #4289 on: June 29, 2016, 12:16:16 AM »

Having just seen Farage's performance in Brussels this morning you have to hand it to him. The fella isn't afraid to get stuck in and tell it how he see's it.

I've thought this for a while and even more so now, if Nigel Farage was the leader of either the Tory or Labour parties and was fighting their ideals and manifesto's both of those parties would be more popular. If you take away the unsavoury past and the racism does the actual way he fights for his party/Brexit endear him to his supporters in a way that the main party leaders don't?

I saw something yesterday that said the increase in value to the Brexit argument from Boris Johnson's involvement was about a 2% swing.

If you listed Farage's involvement in Brexit simply as politician A. Then listed a 22 year fight to get from a vote of under 1,000 in his first by-election to over 17 million voters agreeing with his view for the leave campaign last week isn't that an incredible political achievement from a man/Party with very little actual political clout?

Could he be seen as a big achieving politician that is Leader of a Party that has too many unappealing views to take them much further. If he was available to the Tory's or Labour to fight their principals for a football type transfer fee would he fetch a huge fee or be avoided at all costs?

** Just to make it clear, I didn't vote last week and have only ever voted Tory in any election so have no UKIP/Leave leanings here.







Just like Hitler in the 1930s he has tapped into the basest fears and prejudices of the population at a time of deep recession.


There are a lot of people that have done that  since 1945 tho Keith and the Hitleresque comparison seems way over the top. This is Farage in his pro Europe days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXhLMIDscTI
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