The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

Sturgeon talking sense on Marr. Speaking of May... 2.5 years of no deal better than a bad deal, one week of take this or accept catastrophic no deal scenario. I appreciate herding the crazies (Mantis and Woodsey helpfully give us insight on this) is a tough gig but it’s a sustained period (years) of a deliberate and calculated lie, for which the PM should be held to account.

It’s actually quite funny that up you consider yourself normal rather than one of the crazies when it comes to political opinions 

I’m not normal. I’m not crazy enough to never change my mind on which political party I support, I’m not even crazy enough to say I’d never change my mind on Brexit.

Yup I know that....

I can’t imagine anything worse than being normal.

Explains a lot!

It’s embarrassing that you’re my internet nemesis. Let’s leave it there for now though. Have a lovely day.

Nice to know you consider yourself downfallen because of me 

nemesis

noun
the inescapable agent of someone's or something's downfall


Just banter mate 

[Longines]

Sunday Times

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[kukushkin88]

Sturgeon talking sense on Marr. Speaking of May... 2.5 years of no deal better than a bad deal, one week of take this or accept catastrophic no deal scenario. I appreciate herding the crazies (Mantis and Woodsey helpfully give us insight on this) is a tough gig but it’s a sustained period (years) of a deliberate and calculated lie, for which the PM should be held to account.

It’s actually quite funny that up you consider yourself normal rather than one of the crazies when it comes to political opinions 

I’m not normal. I’m not crazy enough to never change my mind on which political party I support, I’m not even crazy enough to say I’d never change my mind on Brexit.

Yup I know that....

I can’t imagine anything worse than being normal.

Explains a lot!

It’s embarrassing that you’re my internet nemesis. Let’s leave it there for now though. Have a lovely day.

Nice to know you consider yourself downfallen because of me 

nemesis

noun
the inescapable agent of someone's or something's downfall

Just banter mate 

I was thinking closer to the second given definition I guess. For sure room for improvement in my understanding of the word, it hadn’t occurred to me that downfall was part of it. An irony, given that I probably learnt about the word from Arthur Conan-Doyle.

[kukushkin88]

Sturgeon talking sense on Marr. Speaking of May... 2.5 years of no deal better than a bad deal, one week of take this or accept catastrophic no deal scenario. I appreciate herding the crazies (Mantis and Woodsey helpfully give us insight on this) is a tough gig but it’s a sustained period (years) of a deliberate and calculated lie, for which the PM should be held to account.

What is wrong with the deal?  A big chunk of the people who voted yes to Brexit were either reduce EU immigration or remove ECJ/EU parliament control.   Both those will be gone in a couple of years.  This isn't watered down Brexit for them, it was their entire Brexit.

So we are left with the Customs Union, which most voters don't care about; and Ireland, which most don't care about and has not been solved by anyone.  Given the Customs Union and Ireland issue are so linked then I don't see where you want us to go.  As yet, you haven't told us your solution. People have posted about the unsolveable Ireland issue many times, and there hasn't been one remotely sensible solution posted.  

I have no idea where you get the 2.5 years of problems with no deal, it is going to be really shit in the short term, and given it doesn't solve the problems in Ireland, then it could cause problems there for generations.

My proposed solution is remain, now that we are nearly all much better informed about the subject. My problem with the deal is that I believe there is a large element of ensuring that the worst of the crises take place on someone else’s watch, I believe the Conservative Party should be absolutely accountable for fucking this up. I guess it’s important to say I think JC’s contribution has been entirely unacceptable.

[EvilPie]

A question to the remainers in this thread:

Are none of you concerned at how difficult it is to leave if you want to? Obviously you like things as they are so it's not a worry but what if EU policy shifts and you then don't like it? At some point in the distant future the EU may decide to do something that you really don't like so suddenly it's not such a great thing.

If we then have another referendum and 99% vote to leave isn't it a worry that it's damn near impossible?

[kukushkin88]

A question to the remainers in this thread:

Are none of you concerned at how difficult it is to leave if you want to? Obviously you like things as they are so it's not a worry but what if EU policy shifts and you then don't like it? At some point in the distant future the EU may decide to do something that you really don't like so suddenly it's not such a great thing.

If we then have another referendum and 99% vote to leave isn't it a worry that it's damn near impossible?

It’s become an interesting element of the discussion for sure. I’m hugely biased, so my view has limited value. I believe that if being a member of the EU became a bad thing then leaving would be easier as the benefits would be obvious and tangible.

This is ambitious:-) but try and think of it like how it’s difficult to fall off a cliff if there’s a six foot safety fence and multiple signs saying “Danger” at the edge.

[EvilPie]

A question to the remainers in this thread:

Are none of you concerned at how difficult it is to leave if you want to? Obviously you like things as they are so it's not a worry but what if EU policy shifts and you then don't like it? At some point in the distant future the EU may decide to do something that you really don't like so suddenly it's not such a great thing.

If we then have another referendum and 99% vote to leave isn't it a worry that it's damn near impossible?

It’s become an interesting element of the discussion for sure. I’m hugely biased, so my view has limited value. I believe that if being a member of the EU was a bad thing then leaving would be easier as the benefits would be obvious and tangible.

This is ambitious:-) but try and think of it like how it’s difficult to fall off a cliff if there’s a six foot safety fence and multiple signs saying “Danger” at the edge.

But what if there's a bunch of starving lions edging you towards the cliff edge?

You look over the cliff edge and at the bottom you can see the sea.

That sea looks just about deep enough to jump in to but the tide is about to go out.......

[kukushkin88]

A question to the remainers in this thread:

Are none of you concerned at how difficult it is to leave if you want to? Obviously you like things as they are so it's not a worry but what if EU policy shifts and you then don't like it? At some point in the distant future the EU may decide to do something that you really don't like so suddenly it's not such a great thing.

If we then have another referendum and 99% vote to leave isn't it a worry that it's damn near impossible?

It’s become an interesting element of the discussion for sure. I’m hugely biased, so my view has limited value. I believe that if being a member of the EU was a bad thing then leaving would be easier as the benefits would be obvious and tangible.

This is ambitious:-) but try and think of it like how it’s difficult to fall off a cliff if there’s a six foot safety fence and multiple signs saying “Danger” at the edge.

But what if there's a bunch of starving lions edging you towards the cliff edge?

You look over the cliff edge and at the bottom you can see the sea.

That sea looks just about deep enough to jump in to but the tide is about to go out.......

Then you jump. Thankfully we don’t have any lions to worry about. The Conservative Party is an interesting mix of wolves, vulture, rats etc all of who seem to be hungry.

If I could think of an appropriately evil aquatic animal, some of them would be waiting in the sea at the bottom of our imaginary cliff. Think Rees-Mogg/Redwood et al, they’ll cash in big personally and have less checks on how hard they fuck the poor, the Tory dream.

Edit: I don’t think wolves, rats, vultures are evil, they only got involved for metaphorical reasons.

[nirvana]

Sturgeon talking sense on Marr. Speaking of May... 2.5 years of no deal better than a bad deal, one week of take this or accept catastrophic no deal scenario. I appreciate herding the crazies (Mantis and Woodsey helpfully give us insight on this) is a tough gig but it’s a sustained period (years) of a deliberate and calculated lie, for which the PM should be held to account.

What is wrong with the deal?  A big chunk of the people who voted yes to Brexit were either reduce EU immigration or remove ECJ/EU parliament control.   Both those will be gone in a couple of years.  This isn't watered down Brexit for them, it was their entire Brexit.

So we are left with the Customs Union, which most voters don't care about; and Ireland, which most don't care about and has not been solved by anyone.  Given the Customs Union and Ireland issue are so linked then I don't see where you want us to go.  As yet, you haven't told us your solution. People have posted about the unsolveable Ireland issue many times, and there hasn't been one remotely sensible solution posted.  

I have no idea where you get the 2.5 years of problems with no deal, it is going to be really shit in the short term, and given it doesn't solve the problems in Ireland, then it could cause problems there for generations.

My proposed solution is remain, now that we are nearly all much better informed about the subject. My problem with the deal is that I believe there is a large element of ensuring that the worst of the crises take place on someone else’s watch, I believe the Conservative Party should be absolutely accountable for fucking this up. I guess it’s important to say I think JC’s contribution has been entirely unacceptable.

This goes to the general short termism prevalent in the UK - business and politics - any sensible person would think that this must take a long time to unwind. The EU set out from Day 1 that the future relationship couldn't be discussed until withdrawal was agreed. That it's taken 2 years to get to this point is no real surprise to any thinking person imo. The real detail would only ever be something that would be worked out by incumbents and future office holders.

Set against a historical context and the hugeness of the undertaking - 6 or 7 years seems like a short period. Whether it's worth the effort is a legit discussion I guess and that's why I think MPs should start to openly state they want to remain if that's what they prefer - rather than express the Chakarbati type view of 'I respect the result blah blah'- you aren't really paid to respect results, you're supposed to stand for what you believe in

[nirvana]

Anyway, Raab just said only 10% of food comes through Calais so we're still gonna have 90% to choose from and eat. Marr severely underperformed by not asking where the tinned peaches come from

[StuartHopkin]

A question to the remainers in this thread:

Are none of you concerned at how difficult it is to leave if you want to? Obviously you like things as they are so it's not a worry but what if EU policy shifts and you then don't like it? At some point in the distant future the EU may decide to do something that you really don't like so suddenly it's not such a great thing.

If we then have another referendum and 99% vote to leave isn't it a worry that it's damn near impossible?

It’s become an interesting element of the discussion for sure. I’m hugely biased, so my view has limited value. I believe that if being a member of the EU was a bad thing then leaving would be easier as the benefits would be obvious and tangible.

This is ambitious:-) but try and think of it like how it’s difficult to fall off a cliff if there’s a six foot safety fence and multiple signs saying “Danger” at the edge.

But what if there's a bunch of starving lions edging you towards the cliff edge?

You look over the cliff edge and at the bottom you can see the sea.

That sea looks just about deep enough to jump in to but the tide is about to go out.......

It's not though is it

Try we're on a cliff and there are a large group of clowns stood still looking at you. Half have signs saying please stay, half have signs saying if you jump you can't take the circus with you.

You look over the edge and it's so far down you can't see if it's sea, sand or rocks but you are secretly hoping it's gold so you can dive in the opening sequence of Duck Tales.

[kukushkin88]

Sturgeon talking sense on Marr. Speaking of May... 2.5 years of no deal better than a bad deal, one week of take this or accept catastrophic no deal scenario. I appreciate herding the crazies (Mantis and Woodsey helpfully give us insight on this) is a tough gig but it’s a sustained period (years) of a deliberate and calculated lie, for which the PM should be held to account.

What is wrong with the deal?  A big chunk of the people who voted yes to Brexit were either reduce EU immigration or remove ECJ/EU parliament control.   Both those will be gone in a couple of years.  This isn't watered down Brexit for them, it was their entire Brexit.

So we are left with the Customs Union, which most voters don't care about; and Ireland, which most don't care about and has not been solved by anyone.  Given the Customs Union and Ireland issue are so linked then I don't see where you want us to go.  As yet, you haven't told us your solution. People have posted about the unsolveable Ireland issue many times, and there hasn't been one remotely sensible solution posted.  

I have no idea where you get the 2.5 years of problems with no deal, it is going to be really shit in the short term, and given it doesn't solve the problems in Ireland, then it could cause problems there for generations.

My proposed solution is remain, now that we are nearly all much better informed about the subject. My problem with the deal is that I believe there is a large element of ensuring that the worst of the crises take place on someone else’s watch, I believe the Conservative Party should be absolutely accountable for fucking this up. I guess it’s important to say I think JC’s contribution has been entirely unacceptable.

This goes to the general short termism prevalent in the UK - business and politics - any sensible person would think that this must take a long time to unwind. The EU set out from Day 1 that the future relationship couldn't be discussed until withdrawal was agreed. That it's taken 2 years to get to this point is no real surprise to any thinking person imo. The real detail would only ever be something that would be worked out by incumbents and future office holders.

Set against a historical context and the hugeness of the undertaking - 6 or 7 years seems like a short period. Whether it's worth the effort is a legit discussion I guess and that's why I think MPs should start to openly state they want to remain if that's what they prefer - rather than express the Chakarbati type view of 'I respect the result blah blah'- you aren't really paid to respect results, you're supposed to stand for what you believe in

Good post. I think Chakrabarti would love to be all guns blazing remain, seems the loyalty to JC is strong and maybe misguided this time.

[kukushkin88]

The time it’s taken is OK imo, albeit A50 shouldn’t have been triggered until they were a bit more ready. I think they enacted it because they were pleased with the ‘Brexit means Brexit’ soundbite and the timing sat well with that and was perfect to ensure the ‘crazies’ bought in to the idea of TM as leader.

The issue I think is that to a massive extent TM’s tories and to a lesser extent Corbyn and his ‘ista’s’ (let’s ignore the extreme elements on both sides, which I think we can for now, other than maybe the DUP) have an unprecedented opportunity to act in the national interest, in a very clear and meaningful way. Instead they’re just jockeying for political position.

[nirvana]

The time it’s taken is OK imo, albeit A50 shouldn’t have been triggered until they were a bit more ready. I think they enacted it because they were pleased with the ‘Brexit means Brexit’ soundbite and the timing sat well with that and was perfect to ensure the ‘crazies’ bought in to the idea of TM as leader.

The issue I think is that to a massive extent TM’s tories and to a lesser extent Corbyn and his ‘ista’s’ (let’s ignore the extreme elements on both sides, which I think we can for now, other than maybe the DUP) have an unprecedented opportunity to act in the national interest, in a very clear and meaningful way. Instead they’re just jockeying for political position.

It would be interesting to know how many labour MPs are pro-Brexit - a few of the old Stalinists and Marxists and a handful of others - the PLP is pro remain, membership seems to be pro-remain but any MP who doesn't vote down this deal probably faces a real battle to avoid being deselected. It really feels like a ridiculous position that they've adopted - primarily to avoid the labour leave voters (many more of these than in the PLP or membership) possibly wiping them out at a GE

[kukushkin88]

The time it’s taken is OK imo, albeit A50 shouldn’t have been triggered until they were a bit more ready. I think they enacted it because they were pleased with the ‘Brexit means Brexit’ soundbite and the timing sat well with that and was perfect to ensure the ‘crazies’ bought in to the idea of TM as leader.

The issue I think is that to a massive extent TM’s tories and to a lesser extent Corbyn and his ‘ista’s’ (let’s ignore the extreme elements on both sides, which I think we can for now, other than maybe the DUP) have an unprecedented opportunity to act in the national interest, in a very clear and meaningful way. Instead they’re just jockeying for political position.

It would be interesting to know how many labour MPs are pro-Brexit - a few of the old Stalinists and Marxists and a handful of others - the PLP is pro remain, membership seems to be pro-remain but any MP who doesn't vote down this deal probably faces a real battle to avoid being deselected. It really feels like a ridiculous position that they've adopted - primarily to avoid the labour leave voters (many more of these than in the PLP or membership) possibly wiping them out at a GE

I couldn’t agree more, that it’s a ridiculous position. It’s a bit of Benn legacy, I definitely have insight on this one, some of the proper left wing nutters are some of my best friends. Full disclosure: I probably am a Marxist, as I understand the term, I’m sure it’s a much misunderstood term though.