The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

[MANTIS01]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

[kukushkin88]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

[Woodsey]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

He’s usually right and you’re usually wrong and he writes far better prose than you.

[BigAdz]

Just something anecdotal to add to the poverty chat.

I have spent a number of years as a chair of school governors in a school located in one of the most run down areas of the country. I don’t know how we define poverty in this country but I see kids that are regularly not fed, clothed or cared for.

Many of these kids worlds don’t extend any further than the end of the road. They get very little other experiences – a reason we try and use as much funding as possible for school trips. They have never seen the sea, a cow etc.

The majority of these children’s families have never worked. Generation after generation have never worked. The idea that their children would work is completely foreign – most see school as a complete waste of time.

Some of the kids will break the cycle and get some qualifications but many won’t. Before I got in on the ground, I always used to have the attitude of lazy, get off your arses, get out of bed, show some initiative -  go and knock on doors and look for a job etc. etc. Seeing how these children grow up, go through the system and get spat out the other end – it completely changed my mindset. 

It’s interesting. Any views on how we can improve this?

This was interesting to me:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next?language=en

At a top line level, I don't have a clue and don't have the knowledge to throw out suggestions. The one thing I do think is that cutting their benefits and telling them to buck their ideas up is not going to work.

We do lots of small things to try and make a difference. Within the school we have provided "meal packs" for the kids to take home, full on breakfast clubs - we basically have become a small food bank.

Adding that with trying to give the kids as many enriching experiences as possible. Unfortunately, when Mum and Dad are both drug users, and regularly beat each other up - a trip to the seaside isn't going to turn the child into a future lawyer.

It annoys me that the toughest schools tend to get caught in the cycle. I.e. the area is rough, the job is hard, the quality of teachers you attract is low. etc.

Im sorry, and I probably stand alone on this, but based on your experience, isnt more investment in these people just going to see them spend more on drink and drugs?

You HAVE TO WANT to dig yourself out before you can. We have several homeless people in my town who dont want anything more than they get at the moment. I know them because i went to school with them, and they gave up on normal a long time ago. They sit on the street during the day, not always pissed but when they get their dole they spend it quick. They are offered overnight accomodation but only take it when its cold/wet. They are happy to live like this and yes, they would change it but only if someone hands it to them on a plate. They just dont want to work, or change, because they are given enough handouts to get by.

Before I did my current job I spent time surveying social housing. Boy, that was an eye opener. It made me realize that very few people need to be in poverty, but you can get there quite easily if you try, or dont try, as the case may be.

Doesn't sit well with me.

I totally agree with you, that is where the money will go.

As you say, the issue is wanting to dig yourself out. In this particular area, generation after generation have warped the view of normal (i.e. it has become not working, receiving benefits, terrible social housing, drug abuse, domestic violence etc.) From an outside looking in viewpoint - I wanted these people to "dig themselves out", show some initiative, buck their ideas up etc.

I quickly realised that the aspirational mindset that me and you are born with just didn't exist. Dig themselves out of what? To where? There is apathy that I don't think is born of just pure laziness but that's all they have ever known or been shown.

 

I worked with some mates who have been surveying social housing for years. Often, far too often families would be given new builds on new estates, and withing a year doors were smashed, cupboards hanging off walls, carpets filthy, but still evidence of big TV/X boxs etc, yet these were classed as people in poverty by the council.

Its very easy to be suckered in to headlines and some spurious google facts. Like you Mark, until you see the problem first hand it is easy to believe we treat people poorly. We don't.

[BigAdz]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

Why is it whenever you are struggling to win an argument you resort to direct name calling, have we not shown you far more subtle ways of doing it?

Or maybe its just too subtle for you......

[RED-DOG]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

Didn't your opportunities include parents who encouraged you and led by example?

[TightEnd]

Exciting times chez tighty

[kukushkin88]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

Why is it whenever you are struggling to win an argument you resort to direct name calling, have we not shown you far more subtle ways of doing it?

Or maybe its just too subtle for you......

You actually look at that and think I’m struggling to win an argument? I asked a sensible question. He wrote something a little more idiotic than his norm, which had nothing to do with my question and displayed extraordinary ignorance in doing so. Then he said I’d be beaten up in Birmingham. Yeah, it’s me who’s losing the argument :-).

Because I do think you’re a good guy at heart, I actually worry about you. I think it’s dangerous if people read the Mantis nonense and attribute value to it.

[kukushkin88]

Exciting times chez tighty

For all that it almost certainly ends really badly, it’s an incredible time for anyone who has an obsessive interest in politics.

[BigAdz]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

Why is it whenever you are struggling to win an argument you resort to direct name calling, have we not shown you far more subtle ways of doing it?

Or maybe its just too subtle for you......

You actually look at that and think I’m struggling to win an argument? I asked a sensible question. He wrote something a little more idiotic than his norm, which had nothing to do with my question and displayed extraordinary ignorance in doing so. Then he said I’d be beaten up in Birmingham. Yeah, it’s me who’s losing the argument :-).

Because I do think you’re a good guy at heart, I actually worry about you. I think it’s dangerous if people read the Mantis nonense and attribute value to it.

At heart yes. Still enjoy the thought of you    after every Mantis 

Cheers

[kukushkin88]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

Why is it whenever you are struggling to win an argument you resort to direct name calling, have we not shown you far more subtle ways of doing it?

Or maybe its just too subtle for you......

You actually look at that and think I’m struggling to win an argument? I asked a sensible question. He wrote something a little more idiotic than his norm, which had nothing to do with my question and displayed extraordinary ignorance in doing so. Then he said I’d be beaten up in Birmingham. Yeah, it’s me who’s losing the argument :-).

Because I do think you’re a good guy at heart, I actually worry about you. I think it’s dangerous if people read the Mantis nonense and attribute value to it.

At heart yes. Still enjoy the thought of you    after every Mantis 

Cheers

It’s a shame to disappoint you but I have a remarkable inability to get angry. I’ve never seen anger achieve anything that outweighed the downside or that couldn’t be better achieved by other means. Angry people tend to be next to useless at life in my experience.

* Maybe “remarkable” leaves me open to the usual ‘grandiose’ criticism. I only mean that lots of people consider it worthy of note.

[Woodsey]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

:-) What is it that people like about this idiocy? If one of the Mantis fans has insight, I’d genuinely like to know.

Why is it whenever you are struggling to win an argument you resort to direct name calling, have we not shown you far more subtle ways of doing it?

Or maybe its just too subtle for you......

You actually look at that and think I’m struggling to win an argument? I asked a sensible question. He wrote something a little more idiotic than his norm, which had nothing to do with my question and displayed extraordinary ignorance in doing so. Then he said I’d be beaten up in Birmingham. Yeah, it’s me who’s losing the argument :-).

Because I do think you’re a good guy at heart, I actually worry about you. I think it’s dangerous if people read the Mantis nonense and attribute value to it.

At heart yes. Still enjoy the thought of you    after every Mantis 

Cheers

It’s a shame to disappoint you but I have a remarkable inability to get angry. I’ve never seen anger achieve anything that outweighed the downside or that couldn’t be better achieved by other means. Angry people tend to be next to useless at life in my experience.

* Maybe “remarkable” leaves me open to the usual ‘grandiose’ criticism. I only mean that lots of people consider it worthy of note.

I call bullshit, it’s pretty obvious from some of your posts you get wound up sometimes. Great entertainment for the rest of us btw 

[kukushkin88]

If we’re talking the (thankfully rare atm) drunken rants, I exhibit poor judgement in those but not anger. The rest of the time I’m very relaxed about it. I think an important element is understanding just how lowly I rate the views of yourself (Woodsey) and Mantis. It’s hard to be angry about something I believe has close to no value.

As I’ve said and I’ll keep saying. If people believe what he writes, I do think it’s dangerous for Mantis to claim great knowledge while displaying such staggering ignorance. Let’s just read today’s contribution again.

[kukushkin88]

When I was a kid and very poor the state did loads to help. Free milk in morning, free dinner at lunchtime, free education including free stellar grammar school, free library to study in, free dentist and doctor, amazing. Other countries and people in genuine poverty must be so envious. I took full advantage of all the opportunities. Sorry we can’t force people to make a better life for themselves but I will keep giving a huge chunk of my salary to help.

Morning all,

It’s a great success story *. Do you think having a Conservative government is good or bad for bringing about conditions where others can achieve the same?

If it’s good. What policy of theirs was it that helped?

It’s a shame how many people go on this journey and then want to pull up the ladder behind them, plenty of my own family included.

I don't think any political party can or should enforcedly change the attitudes of free citizens. Government can open the door of opportunity but shouldn't shove people through it. It's down to individuals and families to decide for themselves what path they wish to take with the freedom of choice they have. I merely present the opportunities that were open to me and how I took advantage, as anybody can. If you went round many of the estates in Birmingham spouting your liberal woolly nonsense about helping poor folk towards better education and a brighter future you would just get knocked spark out. This is the real world not your socialist fantasy world mate.   

It’s all nonsense but the last two sentences must be of concern, even to the fan club.