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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180124 times)
TightEnd
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« Reply #19740 on: August 14, 2019, 01:17:09 PM »

I don't disagree. I would have voted the WA through, and if Parliament had done so we'd be out now

the fault for that lies with the hard leavers (i would argue, primarily) and the hard remainers in parliament plus the Labour party voting not along national interest but party lines (we want an election).

we are where we are now, and i would take anything over no deal.

I would prefer to honour the referendum result and leave in an ideal world (but we are about as far from an ideal world as Ikea with kids on a sunday afternoon), but not if its no deal.

I would prefer revoke to that

For sure it’s been a frustrating process for you and fellow Remain supporters

But check out that phrase “I would take anything over no deal”

Rewind to 3yrs ago as we enter negotiations for a smooth Brexit me & fellow Leave supporters said our leverage would evaporate with the division. EU knew this. Boris playing a stone cold bluff is the only card left and still it continues. How frustrating. Now your only card is undermining democracy.

well of course i disagree with your final paragraph

If May had set more conciliatory red lines and gone softer brexit, then many remainers would have rowed in behind for the democratic reasons you are keen on

that, and losing her majority after that horrific campaign, are larger parts of where we are now

I think preventing no deal via parliament reasserting itself is how our democracy should work. However, we won't agree on that so back to discussing the construction industry.
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« Reply #19741 on: August 14, 2019, 01:20:51 PM »

Well done to BB. Just as well they are doing well overseas. Very well established well run company

As you imply the UK Construction outlook has some problems

28% of London construction workers migrate from EU countries. migrant workers will be stripped of their right to free movement and, subsequently, their automatic right to work in the UK.

With the supply of labour likely to be unable to meet its demand, it’s very likely there will be a knock-on effect, with house builders unable to meet government housing targets. Consequently, this would see a rise in house prices and project costs.

DB&I says that almost two thirds of building materials are imported from Europe, limits on quantities of imported materials post-Brexit could be disastrous for the construction industry

The UK currently benefits from €7.8bn worth of investments in major infrastructure projects from the European Investment Bank and the European Investment Fund. In addition to this, these institutions lend over €500m to British SMEs every year.



Well researched, however, its not always as black and white as it seems, and we are a resourceful lot.

The Aberdeen ring road, for instance was at  first to completed by using materials from abroad, but in the end, to keep costs down, local granite was used(not the usual materials used in such projects, but it was found to be an able substitute and a lot cheaper by sourcing closer to home).

I'm not sure what the saying is off the top of my head, but in hard times, solutions are found by resourceful people....we are without doubt a resourceful nation

Great news that BB are finding a way to continue be successful. To knowingly/willingly inflict hard times on ourselves is an extraordinary situation.


Your overuse of emotive words loses its impact after a while.......

Have we ever established how much money we save and can thus inwardly invest by not being in the EU? Pretty sure it must be more out than back in, or the little countries wouldn't benefit, or join?  Someone has to be the loser in all this? I suspect we are one of those....


£350,000,000 a week
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« Reply #19742 on: August 14, 2019, 01:32:46 PM »

Well done to BB. Just as well they are doing well overseas. Very well established well run company

As you imply the UK Construction outlook has some problems

28% of London construction workers migrate from EU countries. migrant workers will be stripped of their right to free movement and, subsequently, their automatic right to work in the UK.

With the supply of labour likely to be unable to meet its demand, it’s very likely there will be a knock-on effect, with house builders unable to meet government housing targets. Consequently, this would see a rise in house prices and project costs.

DB&I says that almost two thirds of building materials are imported from Europe, limits on quantities of imported materials post-Brexit could be disastrous for the construction industry

The UK currently benefits from €7.8bn worth of investments in major infrastructure projects from the European Investment Bank and the European Investment Fund. In addition to this, these institutions lend over €500m to British SMEs every year.



Well researched, however, its not always as black and white as it seems, and we are a resourceful lot.

The Aberdeen ring road, for instance was at  first to completed by using materials from abroad, but in the end, to keep costs down, local granite was used(not the usual materials used in such projects, but it was found to be an able substitute and a lot cheaper by sourcing closer to home).

I'm not sure what the saying is off the top of my head, but in hard times, solutions are found by resourceful people....we are without doubt a resourceful nation

Great news that BB are finding a way to continue be successful. To knowingly/willingly inflict hard times on ourselves is an extraordinary situation.


Your overuse of emotive words loses its impact after a while.......

Have we ever established how much money we save and can thus inwardly invest by not being in the EU? Pretty sure it must be more out than back in, or the little countries wouldn't benefit, or join?  Someone has to be the loser in all this? I suspect we are one of those....

All scenarios say Brexit will cost the UK billions (net). There isn’t a situation before where an established modern democracy has voted to harm itself in this way. I think the use of the word extraordinary is OK when we’re talking about an event which is totally unlike anything that has ever happened before.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46370528

Really is a long read but doesn’t leave much room for doubt that the UK will be much poorer on all scenarios:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/760484/28_November_EU_Exit_-_Long-term_economic_analysis__1_.pdf

Worth noting that leaving in bad faith, no deal, with argument over the ‘divorce’ bill and attempting to screw Ireland for leverage is a long way (in a bad way) outside anything that has been projected/modelled in the economic assessments.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:59:41 PM by kukushkin88 » Logged
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« Reply #19743 on: August 14, 2019, 01:37:19 PM »


Have we ever established how much money we save and can thus inwardly invest by not being in the EU? Pretty sure it must be more out than back in, or the little countries wouldn't benefit, or join?  Someone has to be the loser in all this? I suspect we are one of those....

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

We would have saved £8.9bn in 2018.

The OBR forecast that no deal will cost around £30bn a year.

https://www.ft.com/content/641229e0-a945-11e9-984c-fac8325aaa04

So roughly £400m a week less money avaiable to inwardly invest? Maybe there was a really small minus sign on the bus?
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« Reply #19744 on: August 14, 2019, 01:40:51 PM »

Thought we harmed ourselves a lot with the Iraq war. That cost us £8b. Throw in Afghanistan and it’s £20b. £1b pffft.
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« Reply #19745 on: August 14, 2019, 02:01:56 PM »

Thought we harmed ourselves a lot with the Iraq war. That cost us £8b. Throw in Afghanistan and it’s £20b. £1b pffft.

£30 billion a year adds up to quite a bit more than £1 billion pretty quickly.
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« Reply #19746 on: August 14, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »

Thought we harmed ourselves a lot with the Iraq war. That cost us £8b. Throw in Afghanistan and it’s £20b. £1b pffft.


Probably could have saved a few bob if all our EU allies had stood with us though.....#alliesinadversity
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« Reply #19747 on: August 14, 2019, 10:04:20 PM »

Just had a quick breeze through The Telegraph & The Express and just awash with relevant/positive news that Tighty & the gang must've missed...

German GDP shrinks in 2nd quarter & heading for recession, European stocks tumble, global economic slowdown...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/14/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-100-germany-recession/

ComRes Poll shows the public support No Deal by asking the question ‘Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it’ In favour 44% Against 37% A similar poll conducted by The Express had 90% in favour

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/

EU waking up to the fact that they're going to lose UK to new US market for half a century thanks to their disciplinary approach

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/14/europe-risks-losing-uk-americans-half-century-unless-changes/

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1165365/brexit-no-deal-donald-trump-european-union-fear

Amber Rudd talks about the UK jobs boom and the readiness of our economy to face global challenges

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/13/jobs-boom-means-british-economy-ready-anything/

No Deal Brexit would provide the perfect opportunity to buy a house

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/mortgages/no-deal-brexit-will-affect-uk-house-prices-could-create-perfect/
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« Reply #19748 on: August 14, 2019, 11:19:12 PM »

Saw a poll on Twitter about support for No Deal and it got 90k votes at the last look. 13% support No Deal.
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« Reply #19749 on: August 14, 2019, 11:31:38 PM »

Just catching up on the news and if there is anything that is going to put people off voting against the government in a NC vote, it is most definitely the worry of Jeremy Corbyn being in charge. So what does he do? Announces he wants to be leader of a "caretaker government". That isn't going to help.

Seeing Boris's reaction today, it's clear the push to block no deal or call a NC has rattled him.

Call a NC > Boris loses it > Extend A50 > General Election

You've genuinely got to worry for the safety of these politicians if it doesn't get sorted anytime soon.
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« Reply #19750 on: August 15, 2019, 07:36:09 AM »

Just had a quick breeze through The Telegraph & The Express and just awash with relevant/positive news that Tighty & the gang must've missed...

German GDP shrinks in 2nd quarter & heading for recession, European stocks tumble, global economic slowdown...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/14/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-100-germany-recession/

ComRes Poll shows the public support No Deal by asking the question ‘Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it’ In favour 44% Against 37% A similar poll conducted by The Express had 90% in favour

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/boris-johnson-has-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/

EU waking up to the fact that they're going to lose UK to new US market for half a century thanks to their disciplinary approach

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/14/europe-risks-losing-uk-americans-half-century-unless-changes/

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1165365/brexit-no-deal-donald-trump-european-union-fear

Amber Rudd talks about the UK jobs boom and the readiness of our economy to face global challenges

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/13/jobs-boom-means-british-economy-ready-anything/

No Deal Brexit would provide the perfect opportunity to buy a house

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/mortgages/no-deal-brexit-will-affect-uk-house-prices-could-create-perfect/

Great to be posting links, we are talking quite extreme pro Boris/pro Brexit publications though.

https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org/resources/publications/ethics-in-the-news/media-lies-and-brexit

The news on the German economy isn’t good news for anyone, it was expected though. The bigger surprise yesterday was the very concerning news for the UK and US economies:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-49346972

The ComRes poll and the Telegraph’s use of it has been widely discredited.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/telegraph-comres-poll-on-no-deal-brexit-1-6212503

The stories about the US\UK trade are ignoring a massive hurdle. Worth noting that Pelosi has much more influence here than Bolton:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49348062

Amber Rudd might be more optimistic than the analysts, that’s fine but with productivity in decline, it would be interesting to know more about why she’s optimistic.

The last story is ambitious isn’t it? It’s not saying much more than that property prices might well collapse, I’d welcome that but The Telegraph dressing it up as good news is a big departure from the norm and is a bit of a (pro Brexit) stretch.


(The New European is unquestionably biased on Brexit but the people whose opinions they’ve quoted are I believe valid on this subject.)

« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 07:53:30 AM by kukushkin88 » Logged
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« Reply #19751 on: August 15, 2019, 07:53:17 AM »

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?


Let's put the thing into a historical proportion. It might well be bad, but we have come through wars, depressions, stock market crashes before and come out the other side and I would say compared to each of those we have had far more time to adjust, prepare and anticipate that it will be a rough ride.

So far you doom and gloom marchants expected the country to fall into the sea 3 years ago, and that never happened, so try and be a bit more positive ffs.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 07:58:56 AM by BigAdz » Logged

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« Reply #19752 on: August 15, 2019, 08:10:09 AM »

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?

I’m saying that we should always be aware and sceptical of bias on all sides, people should decide for themselves, I’m no authority on the subject. You’ll see that I often raise concerns about the impartiality of publications that support my view (I do it for virtually every link, accept for the BBC and FT). The Ethical Journalist article is interesting, they might well have a bias of their own but clearly they expose a catalogue of anti EU lying in the British print press.

I certainly have never seen a persuasive argument for feeling positive in any way about Brexit. Any links to Brexit related positivity?
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« Reply #19753 on: August 15, 2019, 08:18:18 AM »

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?


Let's put the thing into a historical proportion. It might well be bad, but we have come through wars, depressions, stock market crashes before and come out the other side and I would say compared to each of those we have had far more time to adjust, prepare and anticipate that it will be a rough ride.

So far you doom and gloom marchants expected the country to fall into the sea 3 years ago, and that never happened, so try and be a bit more positive ffs.

The very clear distinction in ‘historical proportion’, is that we are choosing to inflict considerable damage on ourselves and others in this situation, that makes it completely different to all of the examples you cite. Comparisons to war are very unhelpful.

Your last sentence, in relation to me, is just not true.
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« Reply #19754 on: August 15, 2019, 08:24:56 AM »

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?


Let's put the thing into a historical proportion. It might well be bad, but we have come through wars, depressions, stock market crashes before and come out the other side and I would say compared to each of those we have had far more time to adjust, prepare and anticipate that it will be a rough ride.

So far you doom and gloom marchants expected the country to fall into the sea 3 years ago, and that never happened, so try and be a bit more positive ffs.

The very clear distinction in ‘historical proportion’, is that we are choosing to inflict considerable damage on ourselves and others in this situation, that makes it completely different to all of the examples you cite. Comparisons to war are very unhelpful.

Your last sentence, in relation to me, is just not true.

See, this is where you annoy me.

My comparison to war is "very unhelpful".

This would suggest I have hindered something or not helped? It is a statement, I have not done anything, I have not made an action. I have made a statement that is truthful. There have been wars and the economy has been shot, and we have come through it. It is an example(as you keep asking for), an extreme one indeed, but the way you carry on, it is like we are in a war, so I feel it is reasonable to point this out.

I have said you show no optimism about the whole thing, and you then say it is just not true. Yet in your reply just moments earlier you state 'I certainly have never seen a persuasive argument for feeling positive in any way about Brexit', which is exactly what I have said.

You just refuse to be wrong on any level, even when you draw the lines. Incred.
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