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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180913 times)
aaron1867
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« Reply #19875 on: August 19, 2019, 03:26:52 PM »

Always amusing to see people try and blame the MP’s with the benefit of hindsight

Blocking no deal - MP’s fault
No Brexit deal - MP’s fault
No majority for anything - MP’s fault

Brexit is complex. Leaving one part of the U.K. in the EU isn’t something folk can vote for, tariffs and shortages not something MP’s can vote for either. Just because we’re heading for no deal, suddenly it’s the MP’s fault.

Funnily enough it’s only the leave voters that say it too. Trying to take the blame off themselves for that utterly baffling decision to leave in the first place.

But hey, we can make our own laws and the Eastern European’s aren’t coming no more, cya

Unsurprisingly if MP’s had voted for the deal their would be no threat of no deal would there?

Whether it’s the ERG, DUP, Lib Dem’s, moderate Tories and Labour, they have all screwed up between them.

As stated, you don’t just vote for a deal just because we voted for Brexit.

True that Aaron

You vote for deal because having comprehensively digested all the information available to you, you believe it is in the best interests of your constituents and country based on the options and consequences now available to you.

What you do not do is play games, and but personal/party interests ahead of everything.

It is all MP's fault.

There should never have been a referendum.
They should have sorted it by now, and if they cant then they should revoke.

Glad to see the jokes in the paper today about them coming back early from recess.

I still don't buy into blaming it on MP's, every single MP has a different point of view on Brexit. It was never going to be easy. You can't blame MP's for voting a deal down, neither can you blame MP's for wanting no deal or trying to block it.

As for a referendum? Should it have been called? I think so. It would have put the Europe question to bed once and for all. But one thing is for sure, that the campaigning for it, on both sides was utterly chaotic. Corbyn should have pressed much harder, EU should have been involved & the whole remain focus shouldn't have been about fear. But on the other side on that coin is that leave went on hate, nationalism and a few lies. Neither campaign should have been allowed the time of day.

There is no compromise in all of this. I think remainers are willing to compromise, some would have voted for May's deal. There are leavers that want the harshest possible leaving scenario and those that don't. But it is pretty simple, there is no majority from the normal folk for no deal or in HoC for no deal, so why on earth are we pursuing it?

The ultimate compromise is that we go back and have a second referendum because the only good thing about this delay is that people are now more clued up on what Brexit means. Not a bloody general election.
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« Reply #19876 on: August 19, 2019, 03:43:18 PM »

Lis (yes biased, a remainer)

"I just don’t think we’ve grasped how deranged this all is. A government minister has admitted that we might suffer medicine shortages in 11 weeks, and insists that we must go ahead with them in the name of democracy."

Ergo we are hopelessly entangled in a rigid arrangement where the supply of our medical requirements depends entirely on the stability of a single agreement. Isn’t that something you want to change? Is the prosperity of the union so certain?

In any business I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket for vital supplies. I would have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered. As a member of EU we can only have plan a. What Lis says is that rather than letting the fluidity of supply and demand spread the risk across multiple options we should just stick to a single option because the entangling will be a challenge. That’s bollocks mate and much riskier.

What are the EU laws that prevent us from currently buying medicines from outisde the EU?  The way I see it is that we could have chosen to have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered, but just chose not to.




 

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« Reply #19877 on: August 19, 2019, 04:00:00 PM »

Lis (yes biased, a remainer)

"I just don’t think we’ve grasped how deranged this all is. A government minister has admitted that we might suffer medicine shortages in 11 weeks, and insists that we must go ahead with them in the name of democracy."

Ergo we are hopelessly entangled in a rigid arrangement where the supply of our medical requirements depends entirely on the stability of a single agreement. Isn’t that something you want to change? Is the prosperity of the union so certain?

In any business I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket for vital supplies. I would have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered. As a member of EU we can only have plan a. What Lis says is that rather than letting the fluidity of supply and demand spread the risk across multiple options we should just stick to a single option because the entangling will be a challenge. That’s bollocks mate and much riskier.

What are the EU laws that prevent us from currently buying medicines from outisde the EU?  The way I see it is that we could have chosen to have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered, but just chose not to.




 



Therefore the opinion of ‘Lis’ that we are encountering medical shortages in the name of democracy is inaccurate

Moreover the opinion of every remainer who suggested medical shortages are linked to EU membership are all completely wrong
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« Reply #19878 on: August 19, 2019, 04:09:56 PM »

Lis (yes biased, a remainer)

"I just don’t think we’ve grasped how deranged this all is. A government minister has admitted that we might suffer medicine shortages in 11 weeks, and insists that we must go ahead with them in the name of democracy."

Ergo we are hopelessly entangled in a rigid arrangement where the supply of our medical requirements depends entirely on the stability of a single agreement. Isn’t that something you want to change? Is the prosperity of the union so certain?

In any business I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket for vital supplies. I would have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered. As a member of EU we can only have plan a. What Lis says is that rather than letting the fluidity of supply and demand spread the risk across multiple options we should just stick to a single option because the entangling will be a challenge. That’s bollocks mate and much riskier.

What are the EU laws that prevent us from currently buying medicines from outisde the EU?  The way I see it is that we could have chosen to have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered, but just chose not to.


Therefore the opinion of ‘Lis’ that we are encountering medical shortages in the name of democracy is inaccurate

Moreover the opinion of every remainer who suggested medical shortages are linked to EU membership are all completely wrong

There is a current shortage of HRT medicines in the Uk currently and we are still in the EU.
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« Reply #19879 on: August 19, 2019, 04:16:46 PM »

Lis (yes biased, a remainer)

"I just don’t think we’ve grasped how deranged this all is. A government minister has admitted that we might suffer medicine shortages in 11 weeks, and insists that we must go ahead with them in the name of democracy."

Ergo we are hopelessly entangled in a rigid arrangement where the supply of our medical requirements depends entirely on the stability of a single agreement. Isn’t that something you want to change? Is the prosperity of the union so certain?

In any business I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket for vital supplies. I would have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered. As a member of EU we can only have plan a. What Lis says is that rather than letting the fluidity of supply and demand spread the risk across multiple options we should just stick to a single option because the entangling will be a challenge. That’s bollocks mate and much riskier.

What are the EU laws that prevent us from currently buying medicines from outisde the EU?  The way I see it is that we could have chosen to have a plan a, b, c, d of flexible arrangements in case problems were encountered, but just chose not to.




 



Therefore the opinion of ‘Lis’ that we are encountering medical shortages in the name of democracy is inaccurate

Moreover the opinion of every remainer who suggested medical shortages are linked to EU membership are all completely wrong

This all looks like bad logic.  

We are in the position we are in where we rely on the EU through our, in hindsight, bad decisions on medicine sourcing.  Leaving the EU will show our planning wasn't perfect.  

We can still experience problems with supply of medicine as a result of leaving the EU, even if there was no EU law forcing us to source so many medicines from outside the UK, or so many from inside the EU.

It isn't true that the problems are not caused by leaving the EU, leaving the EU is the event that results in those problems coming to a head.  

It is a bit like taking out no house insurance and blaming a house fire for you losing everything.  Without the fire you would lose nothing, but the fire isn't the only cause of your destitution.      
 
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« Reply #19880 on: August 19, 2019, 04:29:20 PM »

How long will the process of sourcing/buying new products really take? I figure not long at all so no need for undue panic.

It looks like being a member of the EU has made us very complacent then. Lots of advantages of Brexit which will streamline business making them more competitive, force us to have a more collaborative approach and shake us out of this malaise of complacency so we source more agile solutions. So many advantages my cup runneth over.
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« Reply #19881 on: August 19, 2019, 04:44:38 PM »

How long will the process of sourcing/buying new products really take? I figure not long at all

lolz.
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« Reply #19882 on: August 19, 2019, 06:21:08 PM »

How long will the process of sourcing/buying new products really take? I figure not long at all so no need for undue panic.

It looks like being a member of the EU has made us very complacent then. Lots of advantages of Brexit which will streamline business making them more competitive, force us to have a more collaborative approach and shake us out of this malaise of complacency so we source more agile solutions. So many advantages my cup runneth over.


It goes back to a point I have been making for a couple of years. Do these companies suddenly not want to supply us and lose all that income? WIll they be able to quickly replace this income? Or maybe they will be keen to find ways of still protecting their income stream.

Remainers seem to think individuals in the EU will want to sever ties, which is total bullshit. Pressure will soon come to bear.

I am not sure if anyone heard a discussion with a French Border control officer this morning on 5Live, but he was happy to make the interviewer look foolish who was trying to convince the audience trade would grind to a halt with all the stops etc getting into France.

He blew her away with his superior knowledge of the true facts that any issues suffered at the start of the year are over. Customs documents are sorted out in delivering offices before they leave their departure point and it is a simple process akin to have a toll bridge card in your window.

He forsees no real issues that will end in the sort of chaos Remain would have us believe.
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« Reply #19883 on: August 19, 2019, 06:53:56 PM »

How long will the process of sourcing/buying new products really take? I figure not long at all so no need for undue panic.

It looks like being a member of the EU has made us very complacent then. Lots of advantages of Brexit which will streamline business making them more competitive, force us to have a more collaborative approach and shake us out of this malaise of complacency so we source more agile solutions. So many advantages my cup runneth over.


It goes back to a point I have been making for a couple of years. Do these companies suddenly not want to supply us and lose all that income? WIll they be able to quickly replace this income? Or maybe they will be keen to find ways of still protecting their income stream.

Remainers seem to think individuals in the EU will want to sever ties, which is total bullshit. Pressure will soon come to bear.

I am not sure if anyone heard a discussion with a French Border control officer this morning on 5Live, but he was happy to make the interviewer look foolish who was trying to convince the audience trade would grind to a halt with all the stops etc getting into France.

He blew her away with his superior knowledge of the true facts that any issues suffered at the start of the year are over. Customs documents are sorted out in delivering offices before they leave their departure point and it is a simple process akin to have a toll bridge card in your window.

He forsees no real issues that will end in the sort of chaos Remain would have us believe.


I repeat once again that I work for a Pharma co and we won’t have any problems that will be an issue for supply. We occasionally have supply problems now as it is that are way trickier than Brexit will ever be (batches failing quality control, shortage of raw materials etc) and we always manage to solve those, all the companies have these challenges from time to time.
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« Reply #19884 on: August 19, 2019, 07:27:39 PM »

Worked in business all my life, most of it manufacturing - we source all over the world, especially so over the last 2 decades. It's really not that difficult.

I think Mantis, Woodsey,, Adz all make good points.

On balance, the whole shortage thang will be a damp squib of mega damp proportions - why would we cause any issues on incoming goods and why would businesses in the EU want to see exports to us interrupted. And, in any case, businesses will make it work.

For our exporters, there's likely to be more issues of course but the focus in the media is on shortages more than EU27 ers  re-sourcing away from the most cost effective major economy in Europe




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« Reply #19885 on: August 19, 2019, 07:37:11 PM »

Worked in business all my life, most of it manufacturing - we source all over the world, especially so over the last 2 decades. It's really not that difficult.

I think Mantis, Woodsey,, Adz all make good points.

On balance, the whole shortage thang will be a damp squib of mega damp proportions - why would we cause any issues on incoming goods and why would businesses in the EU want to see exports to us interrupted. And, in any case, businesses will make it work.

For our exporters, there's likely to be more issues of course but the focus in the media is on shortages more than EU27 ers  re-sourcing away from the most cost effective major economy in Europe


Business always finds a way, that’s why I’m not overly worried.
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« Reply #19886 on: August 20, 2019, 08:52:56 AM »

Johnson's letter to tusk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1psr9wy0UDahcxMtIYhjTJamr4J9ANPt4/view

1. Explicitly rejects "full alignment" across Irish border as agreed by May (with Johnson in cabinet) in Dec 2017
2. Instead: "legally binding commitment" to no hard border (infrastructure, checks or controls "at the border").
3. Hope EU would do likewise
4. Commitment to put in place alt arrangements "as far as possible" by end of transition period – happy to chat about further commitments EU might need
5. A deal could whizz through parliament in no time

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« Reply #19887 on: August 20, 2019, 08:54:06 AM »

(It's like one of those school maths problems with water running into the bath and pouring out again at various rates).

from a forthcoming book
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« Reply #19888 on: August 20, 2019, 08:54:58 AM »

A backbench law to stop no-deal Brexit may lead back to the Question of a caretaker PM
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« Reply #19889 on: August 20, 2019, 08:55:32 AM »

What will happen if the opponents of a no-deal Brexit fail to unite behind an alternative PM?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-swinson-ken-clarke-pm-no-deal-brexit-plan-b-a9063546.html
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