Nadal / Woods / Neither ?

[buzzharvey22]

Ask again in about 3 and a half weeks.

[arbboy]

Now the ATP have finally cracked down on drugs properly rafa showed today and last month in Paris what he really is.  A jobbing tennis player with very little natural talent at the top end of the game.  He shouldn't be having this drop off at his age if he is really one of the GOAT let's be serious about this.  Whatever people think rafa abused the lax drug taking system for years.  I have been told this on good authority for 2 ATP players via friends.  These two guys also state several other ' big names' have also been up to no good.

You don't need to be a genius to work it out if you look at rafa's 'injury breaks' over the years.

As for Tiger i literally couldn't back him with stolen to win another major.  I would probably have a decent wager he never top 5's again in a major never mind wins one.  He lived on the edge as a shagging machine for years getting away with it.  That ego driven lifestyle has all gone now and his confidence was totally shot by it imo.

[The Camel]

Rafa made the QF of the French this year despite having virtually no form going into the tournament.

Assuming he has a clear run into that event for the next 3 years there is no way he'll be double figures to win there in any of them.

Tiger is the GOAT.

He's a shadow of his best atm, but I think totally discounting a comeback is naive in the extreme.

I think it's very close between the three options.

If I had a bet, I think I'd go with Rafa.

[arbboy]

why is tiger the GOAT?  Not looking for a ruck but you talk like it is a 1.01 shot.  He isn't even the all time leader in majors as a simple metric.

Rafa hasn't had any real 'form' since he came off the gear in reality.  This is the 'real' rafa.  He is 29.  He isn't much older than Djok and Muz yet in freefall on every surface over the past 2 years. Makes no sense other than drugs (or the lack of them).  His performance today was shocking against a lifelong journeyman at best.  

Regarding his 'lack of form' going into the French this year i would suggest that was because he was playing shit and isn't the player most people think he is when he is clean.  He has played throughout 2015 and been beaten by some bad players in numerous events through out the year on all surfaces.  The so called 'king of clay' played the whole clay court season and lost to players he would have beat with his eyes closed 3 years ago on several occasions at the age of 29.  What is your definition of a 'clear run'?  Drug assisted?  He had the perfect prep this season for the clay season but was awful relatively for the GOAT on the surface at the age of 29 from start to finish imo.

[The Camel]

why is tiger the GOAT?  Not looking for a ruck but you talk like it is a 1.01 shot.  He isn't even the all time leader in majors as a simple metric.

What was that stat I heard a couple of years ago?

At his peak he was further clear of Phil Mickleson in second of rankings points, than Phil was of the number 1000 in the world.

For a three or four year stretch he was starting at less than 2/1 for every damn tournament he played. Majors included.

His record of converting when entering the final round as leader or joint leader was insane.

Of all major sports golf is easily the most random. The best player is least likely to win any given event.

For about 5 years Tiger overcame that randomness and dominated like Steve Davis did at snooker in the early 80s.

I have an enormous amount of respect for Jack Nicklaus. Fantastic player and great person. His Masters win in 86 is still one of my all time favourite sporting events.

But he never dominated like Tiger did.

[arbboy]

why is tiger the GOAT?  Not looking for a ruck but you talk like it is a 1.01 shot.  He isn't even the all time leader in majors as a simple metric.

What was that stat I heard a couple of years ago?

At his peak he was further clear of Phil Mickleson in second of rankings points, than Phil was of the number 1000 in the world.

For a three or four year stretch he was starting at less than 2/1 for every damn tournament he played. Majors included.

His record of converting when entering the final round as leader or joint leader was insane.

Of all major sports golf is easily the most random. The best player is least likely to win any given event.

For about 5 years Tiger overcame that randomness and dominated like Steve Davis did at snooker in the early 80s.

I have an enormous amount of respect for Jack Nicklaus. Fantastic player and great person. His Masters win in 86 is still one of my all time favourite sporting events.

But he never dominated like Tiger did.

I don't disagree with anything you said.  I know little about golf relatively to other sports.  I just don't think he is a 1.01 shot to be considered the GOAT given his collapse in the past few years.  He went off close to evens for some majors i think in my early days in the punting business fwiw.  I don't think he is anymore dominant than Steve Davies, Federer, Hendry or Taylor in their respective sports and those guys did it for the same length of time or longer.  

The rankings stat although impressive means little unless you know how the points are allocated.  Any rankings system is pretty random.  Remember when USA were the 4th best football team in the world for a decade!    Colin Lloyd was also the darts world number 1 for 2 years when taylor was in his absolute prime and winning any major that mattered.

[The Camel]

why is tiger the GOAT?  Not looking for a ruck but you talk like it is a 1.01 shot.  He isn't even the all time leader in majors as a simple metric.

What was that stat I heard a couple of years ago?

At his peak he was further clear of Phil Mickleson in second of rankings points, than Phil was of the number 1000 in the world.

For a three or four year stretch he was starting at less than 2/1 for every damn tournament he played. Majors included.

His record of converting when entering the final round as leader or joint leader was insane.

Of all major sports golf is easily the most random. The best player is least likely to win any given event.

For about 5 years Tiger overcame that randomness and dominated like Steve Davis did at snooker in the early 80s.

I have an enormous amount of respect for Jack Nicklaus. Fantastic player and great person. His Masters win in 86 is still one of my all time favourite sporting events.

But he never dominated like Tiger did.

I don't disagree with anything you said.  I know little about golf relatively to other sports.  I just don't think he is a 1.01 shot to be considered the GOAT given his collapse in the past few years.  He went off close to evens for some majors i think in my early days in the punting business fwiw.  I don't think he is anymore dominant than Steve Davies, Federer, Hendry or Taylor in their respective sports and those guys did it for the same length of time or longer. 

No he didn't dominant more than them obv, but to be mentioned in the same breath of them proves how great he was.

For a random tournament, the number darts player in the world might be a 6/4 shot. Hendry was probably Evens for every event.

Normally the number one golfer is a minimum of 6/1. Often it's 10s the field.

I would bet decent money we'll never see a golfer off at the sort of prices Tiger used to go off for the majors.

Spieth has won the first two, and he's still 33/1 to win the slam. For a while Tiger was 33/1 to win the slam before he teed off at Augusta!

[AndrewT]

Looks like Tiger has taken some of our comments personally - he shot a 66 yesterday.

[bobAlike]

After about 2 mins scratching my head wondering what the hell GOAT meant Google was my friend.

GOAT - "Tucking back your balls and dick, then bending over thus resembling the back of a goat"

[Kmac84]

What odds on a paid BE subscription providing a profit soon?

[david3103]

I'd definitely be on neither, but how long would you have to wait to settle the Tiger piece of that.
Jack, for my money a far better candidate for GOAT in golf, won his last major at the age of 46.

Btw, I get that Tiger dominated the sport for a time, but for a long period of that dominance there was less to dominate. U.S. Golf was full of journeymen players making money by making cuts and riding one the wave of sponsorship that became a tsunami when Tiger came along. Not just because he was a marketing man's dream, but also because of the rise of subscription based TV channels.
 Palmer started that wave and then Nicklausgot on it and Player, Trevino, Watson, all rode it with him.

Woods definitely in the top two or three though

[TightEnd]

I'd definitely be on neither, but how long would you have to wait to settle the Tiger piece of that.
Jack, for my money a far better candidate for GOAT in golf, won his last major at the age of 46.

Btw, I get that Tiger dominated the sport for a time, but for a long period of that dominance there was less to dominate. U.S. Golf was full of journeymen players making money by making cuts and riding one the wave of sponsorship that became a tsunami when Tiger came along. Not just because he was a marketing man's dream, but also because of the rise of subscription based TV channels.
 Palmer started that wave and then Nicklausgot on it and Player, Trevino, Watson, all rode it with him.

Woods definitely in the top two or three though

neither for me

nadal minus his help can't overpower opponets. five years ago he would have blasted dustin brown off the court with his groundstrokes

woods technique presumably can come good again, but there are physical problems too..back and knees

Jack won at 46 in an era when depth of competition was much weaker and players of 20-25 years old were not overpowering courses. tiger when at 46 will not only have to go through rory/jordan and co but presumably the generation below that with strength and condition and technology advancing all the time. almost impossible i'd say

[Longy]

I am as convinced as anyone that Rafa has had used some form of PED's, but I also think it is rife in tennis. To think he would be some kind of journeymen on a level playing field isn't doing his talent justice IMO.

[david3103]

The 1986 Masters was a weak field?
Nicklaus shot 65 on the final day and the Top 8 and ties included, Greg Norman, Tom Kite, Seve, Bernhard Langer, Tom Watson,  Payne Stewart, Ben Crenshaw and Nick Price.

Doesn't look weak to me.

[TightEnd]

The 1986 Masters was a weak field?
Nicklaus shot 65 on the final day and the Top 8 and ties included, Greg Norman, Tom Kite, Seve, Bernhard Langer, Tom Watson,  Payne Stewart, Ben Crenshaw and Nick Price.

Doesn't look weak to me.

competition was far weaker back then is what i said. it was, far less depth. very few players were overpowering courses like they do now