"The Online games are not fair anymore"

[titaniumbean]

to remove huds from a site would require too much effort for almost any site. The costs would be huge to keep up to date.  If you provide hand histories programmers will develop ways to use that information. If you dont show hand histories then you allow scandals to go on, for example the ipoker and microgaming botting rings were discovered by hud use/tracking software as was the UB scandal.

This is your new area Alex I believe?  Hopefully you'll have some good things to contribute in this field.

Regarding the HHs.. it must be possible to stop 3rd parties scraping all the tables, but producing HHs for security use.  Then it is a matter of employing people in security that can actually find the sort of outlier results that it normally takes someone on 2+2 to prove from time to time while security depts claim to have investigated and found no wrongdoing.

if you show me the HH on my computer screen. I can have it if I want.

unless I have to come down to and go in a vault and not take electronics and look on your screen then no it cant be protected against.

[Simon Galloway]

Its not like I've given this much thought.... but hopefully someone paid to combat it will have.

What happens if only players that sit at a table are able to obtain a HH?  That is, no-one is allowed to spectate.

[mulhuzz]

to remove huds from a site would require too much effort for almost any site. The costs would be huge to keep up to date.  If you provide hand histories programmers will develop ways to use that information. If you dont show hand histories then you allow scandals to go on, for example the ipoker and microgaming botting rings were discovered by hud use/tracking software as was the UB scandal.

This is your new area Alex I believe?  Hopefully you'll have some good things to contribute in this field.

Regarding the HHs.. it must be possible to stop 3rd parties scraping all the tables, but producing HHs for security use.  Then it is a matter of employing people in security that can actually find the sort of outlier results that it normally takes someone on 2+2 to prove from time to time while security depts claim to have investigated and found no wrongdoing.

if you show me the HH on my computer screen. I can have it if I want.

unless I have to come down to and go in a vault and not take electronics and look on your screen then no it cant be protected against.

You can make it prohibitively expensive to capture and process, though.

[titaniumbean]

screen scraping is pretty cheap, and there are tonnes of school kids learning python ......

[rfgqqabc]

Its not like I've given this much thought.... but hopefully someone paid to combat it will have.

What happens if only players that sit at a table are able to obtain a HH?  That is, no-one is allowed to spectate.

whotfru a russian site manage to track zoom hands somehow so this solution doesn't work either.

[shipitgood]

lol funny thread, some people having bad days:(

[neeko]

It's a bit rich of Antonius to moan about asymmetric information, who back in the day had a new account "allthewomen" to take kid poker for $300k, and not tell him who he was till after he won.

[Jamier-Host]

It's funny that 10+ years ago everyone was scrambling to prove that poker was a skill game but struggled to prove the difference in capabilities of groups of players beyond the fortune of hitting the right cards at the right time.

These days we've swung too far in the other direction so it's abundantly clear there is a massive gap between the hard-working, software toting players and the casual players. Hence the seemingly unceasing descent into irrelevance/obscurity for the game as it stands in many formats.

Anything that maintains/increases the skill gap is bad longterm, whereas anything that can be done to make the game more about luck has the potential to bring back bundles of cash from those looking for a (pseudo-)skill gamble. Most casual players don't really care if they lose over time, they just need to feel like they have a fair chance and actually experience a winning high now and again.

[SuuPRlim]

just to defend PA for a minute, I read the article in full, and came by it the same way tighty did I imagine through HSDB/Pokerlistings and it's a VERY misleading title;
He never once used the word "fair" as far as I could tell. He said after playing in the ring games and losing $1m he realised he can no longer beat the games as he doesn't want to start using the software and if you don't have then its not a "fair game" as you're at too big a disadvantage. He's almost certainly not complaining that it isn't "fair."

You know, things just change in our industry. So I stepped back and cut down on poker

Seems like he knows whats needed, but doesn't want to do it, so isn't going to...which seems utterly fair enough to me.

[RED-DOG]

But I want to be better than someone at poker, not at operating and interpreting software programmes.

If we follow this to it's conclusion, shouldn't I be allowed to use my motorbike to win the Tour de France?

[LonOhRay]

But I want to be better than someone at poker, not at operating and interpreting software programmes.

If we follow this to it's conclusion, shouldn't I be allowed to use my motorbike to win the Tour de France?

Can use a mountain bike with flat tyres instead of investing time, money and training into improving the design and materials used to create the bike and how you ride it. Just like a 20 stone kebab eating, beer drinking enthusiast can enter a triathlon using a tricycle and wearing stilettos  - he's probably not going to win.

I had a discussion about this article around a poker table tonight, mostly players who have played/play semi-professionally in times gone by, they thought it was very scary that "Patrick Antonious" big name professional was now saying this.

My point was you wouldn't expect Michael Phelps to rock up to the olympics 4 years later without doing any training or eating correctly and win gold medals, I'm sure he could turn up to his local or regional pool and win some medals now with his knowledge just the same as Ricky Hatton when he binged out after fights.


The closest example would probably be Chess grandmasters - I don't know if your game can deteriorate or if the curve is anywhere near as fast as poker but I imagine if a top player stopped playing or cut his hours tenfold he wouldn't be able to compete at the top level either. Players now can evaluate their plays using computer programmes and tens of thousands of games have been recorded they can study from, if they refuse to use these resources they will probably lag behind too.


tl/dr

I also wish HUDs, seating scripts, poker trackers, sharkscope or other result recording websites were never invented and would very much support them all being banned.

[EvilPie]

Saying that recs should put in more work if they want to keep up is absolute bullshit to be honest. You work at your job and if your job isn't poker why the f**k would you want to work at it? I put in enough f**king work every day earning the money which I then use to fund hobbies, one of which used to be poker.

To be told be professional poker players that I should work a bit harder at my hobby just pisses me right off!! Even if I put in a bit of work it still won't be as much as the pros so all I'm doing is slowing the rate at which they're getting better than me. It's far easier to just select a new hobby that doesn't require any hard work.

Pros and better recs used to take money off me slowly. I'd happily lose a few thousand a year because I enjoyed the game and there was always a punchers chance that I may bink a decent score one day. I've completely given up with online poker as I don't feel I have a chance any more. Whether it be HUDs or whatever doesn't matter, the fun goes out of poker if you think you haven't even got a hope of that lucky bink. I won't be putting in 8 hours a day to get better, I won't be buying HUDs and learning how to use them to try to narrow the gap. I'm just not going to spend any more money at online poker.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and the way that poker has gone recently both live and online has ripped most of the fun out of poker for me. Even in live comps I now feel like my puncher's chance has been massively reduced because of the multi-entry/re-entry thing that's being debated elsewhere on the forum.

The thing is I'm not stupid, I'm actually quite intelligent. I understand the math behind re-entry and multi-entry, I understand that a HUD won't make much difference against me because you won't play enough hands against me to ever gain any more of an edge than you already have. I understand that my recent losing run might have nothing to do with any of the above, it might just be variance. None of this matters though. I've got to the point where the combination of variance, HUDs, better players, multi entry blah blah blah has just gotten too much.

I know that I can combat most of these problems by putting in more effort or more money but I just don't want to. It seemed far easier to just drastically reduce my £10k a year contribution to the pros weekly food bills and go on a few more holidays instead.

Good luck for the future.......

[marcro]

I think HUD's are a big reason for the continual decline of online poker.  New players are not interested in taking on HUD grinders and when it is HUD grinders v HUD grinders and they are playing for a diminishing amount of money, some will go broke.

Not sure if banning them now will make much difference, it has probably gone too far to change the perception.  Future is not looking good for professional HUD grinders.

[EvilPie]

But I want to be better than someone at poker, not at operating and interpreting software programmes.

If we follow this to it's conclusion, shouldn't I be allowed to use my motorbike to win the Tour de France?

The closest example would probably be Chess grandmasters - I don't know if your game can deteriorate or if the curve is anywhere near as fast as poker but I imagine if a top player stopped playing or cut his hours tenfold he wouldn't be able to compete at the top level either. Players now can evaluate their plays using computer programmes and tens of thousands of games have been recorded they can study from, if they refuse to use these resources they will probably lag behind too.

If that's the closest example then you've got problems because quite frankly it's shit.

The deteriorating chess grandmaster isn't having to go to work for 8 hours a day and then funnel a % of his hard earned wage to the other grandmasters is he?
 

[RED-DOG]

Saying that recs should put in more work if they want to keep up is absolute bullshit to be honest. You work at your job and if your job isn't poker why the f**k would you want to work at it? I put in enough f**king work every day earning the money which I then use to fund hobbies, one of which used to be poker.

To be told be professional poker players that I should work a bit harder at my hobby just pisses me right off!! Even if I put in a bit of work it still won't be as much as the pros so all I'm doing is slowing the rate at which they're getting better than me. It's far easier to just select a new hobby that doesn't require any hard work.

Pros and better recs used to take money off me slowly. I'd happily lose a few thousand a year because I enjoyed the game and there was always a punchers chance that I may bink a decent score one day. I've completely given up with online poker as I don't feel I have a chance any more. Whether it be HUDs or whatever doesn't matter, the fun goes out of poker if you think you haven't even got a hope of that lucky bink. I won't be putting in 8 hours a day to get better, I won't be buying HUDs and learning how to use them to try to narrow the gap. I'm just not going to spend any more money at online poker.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and the way that poker has gone recently both live and online has ripped most of the fun out of poker for me. Even in live comps I now feel like my puncher's chance has been massively reduced because of the multi-entry/re-entry thing that's being debated elsewhere on the forum.

The thing is I'm not stupid, I'm actually quite intelligent. I understand the math behind re-entry and multi-entry, I understand that a HUD won't make much difference against me because you won't play enough hands against me to ever gain any more of an edge than you already have. I understand that my recent losing run might have nothing to do with any of the above, it might just be variance. None of this matters though. I've got to the point where the combination of variance, HUDs, better players, multi entry blah blah blah has just gotten too much.

I know that I can combat most of these problems by putting in more effort or more money but I just don't want to. It seemed far easier to just drastically reduce my £10k a year contribution to the pros weekly food bills and go on a few more holidays instead.

Good luck for the future.......

I lolled Matt, but that's a fantastic post.