WSOP 2016

[Ironside]

i like banter at the table FFS i try to get people playing karaoke poker
when when your slowing the game down to the point your disadvantaging the short stacks on your table as the other tables are playing twice as fast, you have over stepped the mark.
FROM THE EDIT it looks like will was only slowing the game down once he got chips when he was short he let it run at a much better speed

do people still think mattiaus andersson in 2004 was OTT i think his over excitement pales  into insignificance compared to some of the players in the past few years

[4KSuited]

No doubt there's stuff that gets lost in the edit of these broadcasts, so there's a caveat against all my comments here - although I did read somewhere that the other two tables were playing at a similar hand-rate to WK's table since the pay jumps are very significant, and everyone's trying to avoid mistakes etc

So, from what we saw on the actual transmission, it did appear that WK was taking his time with decisions - but why the hell not? How many times in your life are you in the last 30-40 players of the WSOP ME? I was astonished to see & hear the amount of barracking that WK got, particularly from Moss who made a couple of the most snide, insulting remarks (next to Bleznik and Josephy). Perhaps WK was responsible for a large dose of this - replacing stacks of higher denominations with smaller chips was a particularly childish provocation, I thought - but none of his behaviour warranted the incredibly one-eyed bias from the TD.

In the A8 vs 33 hand I thought WK had a serious decision; he called Moss's hand correctly, and could (IMO) have afforded to take the flip for c.20% of his stack. The decision was WK's to make, and yet JE stated that WK had to stop talking in order to let the other player make a decision (or words to that effect) and thereby ordered WK the stfu and play. For the first time it was WK who was unable to think clearly due to the barracking he was getting from the table at large.

I think in hindsight he probably wishes that a) He hadn't provoked the table quite so much as he had to that point and b) He called Moss's shove. In this instance he was the victim of his own antics.

However, I do believe that in spite of all this he showed remarkable composure and proceeded to outplay his opponents in every other hand that made the edit.

[MANTIS01]

Peter Ebdon was one of the slowest snooker players I ever saw, think, think, chalk, chalk, approach shot, get back up, think, think, chalk, chalk. Must've been a nightmare when he played Ronnie O'Sullivan, how frustrating for the Rocket. Especially when he'd do it deliberately to slow the game down and unsettle his opponent. Think people in sport and in poker should consider others really, so selfish.

[SuuPRlim]

I didn't say that teacake...respect for JE however he is not in my experience a fair person, I've witnessed with my own many timed eyes heavy favoritism towards well known players, especially Americans.

I am not alone in this view either, so I am not surprised WK got it  hard from JE.

I think he has a bit of a needle with brits in general.

Just my opinion.

Having said this though WK brings the whole thing on himself by ridiculous needless antics.

My apologies Dave, my bad. You actually said....


"I don't think Jack Eiffel handles it all that well".

Which is a different thing altogether, sorry.

My point remains the same though - every poker player thinks they can do Jack's job better than Jack. And I disagree. Players should play, TD's should TD.

How often does a football referee get dissed from the strands? How often do they get praise from fans?

Like your explanations of the Restaurant game, it's not as simple as it looks to customers. Dissing is so so easy.

It WAS a very awkward spot, & I think the PokerNews piece showed that to non-myopics.  

How many decisions does he have to get wrong out of a 1,000 to be seen as a poor TD?

I don't think he's a poor TD, he knows the game well and is quite authoritative, and I don't think he got much wrong in this coverage I just think he has a needle with British guys and this is an opinion that's been formed over a few years and every yr I play WSOP i see something to further back it up. I can't help but feel that if WK was an american guy he wouldn't have handled it the same, which is very wrong.

TBF to him though, it's a lot of pressure, on ESPN, deep in the biggest tournament of the yr $8m up/top and under immense scrutiny without much time to prepare himself, so it's a very difficult situation he's faced with.

Telling WK he can't ask his opponent if he wants a call, is however kind of ridiculous, and telling him that he can't speak because the other players dont like it? That's not fair at all - If WK's plan was to rattle the table then there is absolutely no doubt he did it, I hate that stuff myself but it defo worked. The 1 round penalty for "taunting" was ridiculous too, the way he gave WK that big lecture in the middle of the A8 vs 33 decision is not fair either, the guy is in the midst of a $300k~ decision!? Surely the only ay to handle this is to say to WK "We need to talk after the hand, if you take excessive time I will put a clock on you" and ask all the other players to be quiet and let him concentrate on the decision. Jonny Bax is chiming in when he isn't even in the hand and JE doesn't say anything? Only when JB admits that he was the one who called him a clown does JE say to him "yeh, don't do that" It's not really that bad but it's just kinda poor form from someone as experienced as JE and why does he seem to make only these tiny amount of errors (as tikay says, really low %) vs the same person??

Cos he's British maybe??

IDK - doesn't sit right with me. Respect the man, respect how long he's done the job and the fact he does it very well, and maybe this is a sub-conscious thing for him, or I'm overly sensitive but i don't like it. Certainly not saying I could do a better job, nor would i want to try.

I think btw this all stems for the "UK RAILS" epidemic of 2011-2013 when every time someone UK made a FT the walls would shake.

[tikay]

I didn't say that teacake...respect for JE however he is not in my experience a fair person, I've witnessed with my own many timed eyes heavy favoritism towards well known players, especially Americans.

I am not alone in this view either, so I am not surprised WK got it  hard from JE.

I think he has a bit of a needle with brits in general.

Just my opinion.

Having said this though WK brings the whole thing on himself by ridiculous needless antics.

My apologies Dave, my bad. You actually said....


"I don't think Jack Eiffel handles it all that well".

Which is a different thing altogether, sorry.

My point remains the same though - every poker player thinks they can do Jack's job better than Jack. And I disagree. Players should play, TD's should TD.

How often does a football referee get dissed from the strands? How often do they get praise from fans?

Like your explanations of the Restaurant game, it's not as simple as it looks to customers. Dissing is so so easy.

It WAS a very awkward spot, & I think the PokerNews piece showed that to non-myopics.  

How many decisions does he have to get wrong out of a 1,000 to be seen as a poor TD?

I don't think he's a poor TD, he knows the game well and is quite authoritative, and I don't think he got much wrong in this coverage I just think he has a needle with British guys and this is an opinion that's been formed over a few years and every yr I play WSOP i see something to further back it up. I can't help but feel that if WK was an american guy he wouldn't have handled it the same, which is very wrong.

TBF to him though, it's a lot of pressure, on ESPN, deep in the biggest tournament of the yr $8m up/top and under immense scrutiny without much time to prepare himself, so it's a very difficult situation he's faced with.

Telling WK he can't ask his opponent if he wants a call, is however kind of ridiculous, and telling him that he can't speak because the other players dont like it? That's not fair at all - If WK's plan was to rattle the table then there is absolutely no doubt he did it, I hate that stuff myself but it defo worked. The 1 round penalty for "taunting" was ridiculous too, the way he gave WK that big lecture in the middle of the A8 vs 33 decision is not fair either, the guy is in the midst of a $300k~ decision!? Surely the only ay to handle this is to say to WK "We need to talk after the hand, if you take excessive time I will put a clock on you" and ask all the other players to be quiet and let him concentrate on the decision. Jonny Bax is chiming in when he isn't even in the hand and JE doesn't say anything? Only when JB admits that he was the one who called him a clown does JE say to him "yeh, don't do that" It's not really that bad but it's just kinda poor form from someone as experienced as JE and why does he seem to make only these tiny amount of errors (as tikay says, really low %) vs the same person??

Cos he's British maybe??

IDK - doesn't sit right with me. Respect the man, respect how long he's done the job and the fact he does it very well, and maybe this is a sub-conscious thing for him, or I'm overly sensitive but i don't like it. Certainly not saying I could do a better job, nor would i want to try.

I think btw this all stems for the "UK RAILS" epidemic of 2011-2013 when every time someone UK made a FT the walls would shake.

Agree with much of that.

Will never helped though, did he?

It's almost like one of those "totting up" things. Persistent little niggly things, none of which in isolation, merit a penalty, eventually mean a line has to be drawn over a single incident which is no worse or better than all the others. I mean, for example, if WK wants to place a big bet in small denom chips, there's nothing specific in the rules to stop him. It's not a good thing though, is it? Soon, the other 30 will mimic WK, & they'll all be at it. Is that really what we want?

The fact that there is such a vigorous debate - I bet 2+2 LOVE JE - does show how awkward the whole thing was for all involved. It was not simple, not at all, & we need to recognize that.

We can all pile in & say JE's a twat, but that's some tough job he has, & I seriously doubt many others could do better & I think we should recognize this.  The vast majority - & we are talking over 99% I'd guess - of those telling Jack how to do his job have never been, & could never be, a TD, any more than JE could beat any of them at poker. Both tasks are specialist. Many - most? - poker players think they'd make a good TD, in the same way as all motorists think they are great drivers & everyone else are bad drivers. It's bollox though, isn't it?

Quite unrelated, but I was playing at Caesars a few years ago & got a one orbit penalty for talking to my opponent during a hand (Greek Jack, as it happened, & it was banter between mates). We were Heads Up, & I never even realised we were - at the time - not allowed to discuss the hand while we were playing it. I asked for Floor to give a Ruling, as it was just 2 of us, & there was no bad blood or prev history or owt, & Floor then gave me an additional one orbit pen for "arguing".  Anti Brit bias, obv.

[MANTIS01]

Yo the point for me is it isn't anything to do with the correctness of a 'technical decision' but regular people skills and fairness, something that's expected as standard. JE is being driven by frustration and reacting to emotion, you can see it in his body language and that isn't a person you want in charge of stuff. I'm not the best flyer in the world and if the pilot was being driven by frustration and emotion it would be difficult to appreciate the 99.8% smooth flights he's landed before as we lurch towards the tarmac.

[Magic817]

No doubt there's stuff that gets lost in the edit of these broadcasts, so there's a caveat against all my comments here - although I did read somewhere that the other two tables were playing at a similar hand-rate to WK's table since the pay jumps are very significant, and everyone's trying to avoid mistakes etc

So, from what we saw on the actual transmission, it did appear that WK was taking his time with decisions - but why the hell not? How many times in your life are you in the last 30-40 players of the WSOP ME? I was astonished to see & hear the amount of barracking that WK got, particularly from Moss who made a couple of the most snide, insulting remarks (next to Bleznik and Josephy). Perhaps WK was responsible for a large dose of this - replacing stacks of higher denominations with smaller chips was a particularly childish provocation, I thought - but none of his behaviour warranted the incredibly one-eyed bias from the TD.

In the A8 vs 33 hand I thought WK had a serious decision; he called Moss's hand correctly, and could (IMO) have afforded to take the flip for c.20% of his stack. The decision was WK's to make, and yet JE stated that WK had to stop talking in order to let the other player make a decision (or words to that effect) and thereby ordered WK the stfu and play. For the first time it was WK who was unable to think clearly due to the barracking he was getting from the table at large.

I think in hindsight he probably wishes that a) He hadn't provoked the table quite so much as he had to that point and b) He called Moss's shove. In this instance he was the victim of his own antics.

However, I do believe that in spite of all this he showed remarkable composure and proceeded to outplay his opponents in every other hand that made the edit.

There was an 18minute hand on one of the other tables. Players should take their time but players taking ages over their non-decisions isn't good for the game.

[SuuPRlim]

Yo the point for me is it isn't anything to do with the correctness of a 'technical decision' but regular people skills and fairness, something that's expected as standard. JE is being driven by frustration and reacting to emotion, you can see it in his body language and that isn't a person you want in charge of stuff. I'm not the best flyer in the world and if the pilot was being driven by frustration and emotion it would be difficult to appreciate the 99.8% smooth flights he's landed before as we lurch towards the tarmac.

Haha.

[SuuPRlim]

And Tikay agree completely WK was being a nightmare and certainly very difficult to deal with, he brought everything on himself and gets zero sympathy from me.

If he just cut out the stupid antics at menial times (done purely to show off)  then he would have been absolutely fine for me. 

However...JE job is to be fair, which he wasn't and this gives WK a case to feel hard done by he shouldn't really have.

[Chompy]

Don't remember WSOP being edited in a similar way to Big Brother before. So much of it is out of context.

[teddybloat]

who says WK is bad for games:

[SuuPRlim]

Actually if you watch episode 13 and see thr sit down chat with JE and WK, JE handles it much better.

Thats after the hands sat in a chair by themselves though, but still, much better.

[RickBFA]

Have to laugh at Griifin Benger claiming Kassouf abusing him. Poor thing.

[MANTIS01]

I mean sure WK was an awkward customer but have to agree about that Benger dude. I mean holy shit fella just relax. Now that verbal abuse accusations have appeared at the poker table I fear health & safety violations are just around the corner. Sad times.

[DaveShoelace]

Have to laugh at Griifin Benger claiming Kassouf abusing him. Poor thing.

Hands down the weakest shit I have seen in my entire life.