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Author Topic: The Next President of the United States  (Read 203519 times)
Graham C
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« Reply #2595 on: June 13, 2018, 12:39:35 PM »

Why is it down to Trump to bring North Korea to the rest of the world? Why couldn't one of the other country leaders negotiate with him?
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« Reply #2596 on: June 13, 2018, 12:40:16 PM »

Endless anti-Trump smuggery is feeling boring to me now. On the telly box I saw Trump and Kim shaking hands, walking in the gardens, slapping each other on the back. Not seen any other western leader doing that in recent times. Could be something interesting happening here.

Yup, some people simply can’t bring themselves to ever admit he’s ever done a single good thing....Obama would be getting absolutely lauded if he was in Trumps shoes this week.

Are you sure about that Andy?

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/politics/fox-news-different-reactions-regarding-negotiations-with-north-korea


Very sure, Fox News’ stance on Obama and Trump is no surprise to anyone. Ask a liberal type trump hater and watch them grit their teeth at the very thought of saying anything positive.....

Your prejudice blinds you on this, as on UK issues. Trump gets credit when he acts sensibly and responsibly. He is much more liberal than the mainstream Republicans, never mind the right wing, on social issues and areas like healthcare and gun control, and he gets credit for that. And when he comes out with standard right-wing views, say on taxes, that you might hear from Bush, for example, it is at least a reasonable viewpoint that we might agree or disagree with, and is treated as normal discourse. But when the President comes out with ridiculous statements, as he frequently does, it gets the derision it deserves. Unfortunately, there are many times when these seem to outweigh the sensible stuff.

I don’t have any predudice because I really couldn’t give a monkeys either way about Trump. However it’s pretty clear even on this thread for example where he cops a lot of pisstaking and rarely if ever any positive comments. It’s that prejudice by people clearly tilted by him so hard they can’t bring themselves to say anything good.

I refer back to my comment regarding Obama would be getting huge praise if he was in trumps shoes on the North Korea issue. Then people can hardly say a good word about Trump on that issue, it’s quite funny actually......

Kim comitted to denuclearisation back in April when he met South Korea's president.   Let's just say it is unclear how much has been achieved this time.   Fair play if Trump plays his part in peace talk and if the North Korean people achieve freedoms. 

Not sure Obama would get universal plaudits for shaking hands with the tyrant.  People who have read about North Korea's past are bound to have reservations.

That statement about Obama is just wrong. He got praise from some outlets, but lambasted by the right-wing media and politicians for saying he would meet Kim, and have you forgotten already the reactions when he met Castro? I don't see liberal outlets or politicians laying into Trump on Korea the way Obama was crucified on those two occasions. Trump is getting a much fairer hearing than Obama did, but your prejudice against liberals leads you to make historically inaccurate assertions.
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« Reply #2597 on: June 13, 2018, 01:53:04 PM »

Interested in what the consensus actually is for Trump's role in all this? Sure, he's shaking hands with the guy, but from what I've seen he's also said some stupid things and the main steps have been taken during the meetings between the North and South, not between Kim and America. I imagine the Winter Olympics played a big part in this too, so I guess a general question (but more aimed at the Trump fans itt), what has Trump himself personally done here other than shake the guy's hand?
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« Reply #2598 on: June 13, 2018, 04:42:44 PM »

Interested in what the consensus actually is for Trump's role in all this? Sure, he's shaking hands with the guy, but from what I've seen he's also said some stupid things and the main steps have been taken during the meetings between the North and South, not between Kim and America. I imagine the Winter Olympics played a big part in this too, so I guess a general question (but more aimed at the Trump fans itt), what has Trump himself personally done here other than shake the guy's hand?

One of Trumps good attributes is a also a massive negative at times - ie he just does stuff in the belief (and knowledge by now) he can just undo stuff when he feels like and he has no sense of shame about flip flopping all over the shop.

So something like this summit can be on/off/on in the time it might take a normal administration to consider their response and he can say stuff that he can roll back on pretty much any time he chooses

So, I don't think there's any doubt that his general approach (and by extension, that of his administration) has made this meeting happen - on balance I think that's a good thing.

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« Reply #2599 on: June 13, 2018, 07:03:36 PM »

As far as I can tell just a few weeks ago Kim was firing ballistic missiles into Japanese waters and now he's agreeing to decommission all his rockets. I'm also thinking them Korean people have been oppressed for an awful long time. And Kim has been threatening the world with nuclear bombs for an awful long time. Now though he's walking in the gardens, big smile, talking about a new chapter, fist-bumping the Donald. Yet the rhetoric is still overwhelmingly negative from spectators.

By comparison, when the Berlin wall came down there was party atmosphere, people were buzzing?? Got a feeling if Trump was at the front with a sledgehammer derision would've still ensued.

However, it's very clear that Trump can be an enigmatic character, especially when talking about commercial gain. He played Kim very well in this coup and was the driving force behind establishing this new chapter Kim describes. For sure the motivation for Trump is simply the opportunity of this coup and he strikes me as somebody who exploits opportunity. If he continues stimulating economy, especially in deprived manufacturing regions and then negates the N Korea threat what then? These are the kinda things that would indeed make Amercia great again.

In short Trump gets shit done and that's refreshing in politics. Intelligent people on the sidelines clock his selfish motives, his blunders, general incompetence and get angry stamping their feet. Yet what I see is people in N Korea are one step further from oppression and Kim not firing anymore rockets. Sounds like a good reason to party.
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« Reply #2600 on: June 13, 2018, 07:13:41 PM »

I would add that when Trump pulled out of talks he was in receipt of a gigantic letter from Kim. It was the size of small coffee table and showered Trump with praise. Now if I received a love letter the size of a frigging small coffee table through the post I could rightly argue that I probably wasn't inconsequential in the process. 
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« Reply #2601 on: June 13, 2018, 07:20:27 PM »

As stolen from the Economist here is all the times we've been here before:

 Click to see full-size image.


So yes, if this time it sticks and Kim actually does give up trying to make nuclear rockets, it's a big Trump success. I think it's a small Trump success that any talks at all happened- it's good to talk right? The big prize is a better life for North Koreans.
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« Reply #2602 on: June 13, 2018, 08:39:04 PM »

There is a fairly big difference this time in that it is the President meeting a NK leader.

Not to say things won't return to the pre-existing state and certainly no comment on you posting it Skippy. But, this tendency to contextualise everything that happens with a 'we've been here before' negative slant, or an unwillingness to give unreserved credit on a specific issue because we don't like the way someone thinks on other issues, is a real problem in our societies. I'd say this is particularly true amongst the left where a sense of despair and hopelessness seems to pervade much of the thinking.

The past is fixed, the future isn't; so Trump making an effort should only be applauded. It's as simple as that, forget his other views, forget his faults -just say well done for trying. I can't see any value at all in even mentioning that it is a path that has been trodden before (even though in this case it's not strictly true) or that previous attempts at some long lasting detente have failed. Are we supposed to give up trying because things are difficult or might not improve despite our efforts - it's a very depressing way to view the world.

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #2603 on: June 13, 2018, 09:05:37 PM »

You is absolutely right buddy.

The current objection I'm hearing is Trump should feel shame for chowing down with known tyrant.

I'm sure the average joe family in N Korea will applaud our principals.
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« Reply #2604 on: June 13, 2018, 09:28:42 PM »

You is absolutely right buddy.

The current objection I'm hearing is Trump should feel shame for chowing down with known tyrant.

I'm sure the average joe family in N Korea will applaud our principals.


Probably the most laughable criticism that could be levelled
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« Reply #2605 on: June 13, 2018, 09:38:19 PM »

I don't see how you two think this will make any difference to the man in the north korean street, or how they are one step further away from tyranny. If anything, this whole thing solidifies Kim's grip on power.

I think it's good that the summit happened, and it's probably preferable to millions of people dying in bloody war.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #2606 on: June 13, 2018, 09:46:10 PM »

Trump talking beaches and hotels is capitalism yo
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« Reply #2607 on: June 13, 2018, 11:02:23 PM »

I don't see how you two think this will make any difference to the man in the north korean street, or how they are one step further away from tyranny. If anything, this whole thing solidifies Kim's grip on power.

I think it's good that the summit happened, and it's probably preferable to millions of people dying in bloody war.

I wouldn't contend that it will do anything for an average North Korean tomorrow but I don't think it's for Trump to change the regime in NK. The record of Western interference, destabilising of regimes in Africa and the middle east in recent times or direct intervention (eg Iran coup 1953) is not glorious or something we should hope for Trump to engage in.

At the same time, if bridges are genuinely built, sanctions are eased, relations with improve and improvements in human rights sought in exchange for continued easing of sanctions then ,I think it's possible to imagine North Korean lives improving

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« Reply #2608 on: June 14, 2018, 10:39:34 AM »

I can't stand him, and love the Seth Meyers, SNL skits etc. Still, I hope he does great, and willow does give up the nukes

Dave Rubin was on Rogan last night, so I'm sure they'll have been talking a fair bit about politics, and I'm going to listen to it tonight when I get home.
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« Reply #2609 on: June 14, 2018, 09:03:52 PM »

Endless anti-Trump smuggery is feeling boring to me now. On the telly box I saw Trump and Kim shaking hands, walking in the gardens, slapping each other on the back. Not seen any other western leader doing that in recent times. Could be something interesting happening here.

Yup, some people simply can’t bring themselves to ever admit he’s ever done a single good thing....Obama would be getting absolutely lauded if he was in Trumps shoes this week.

Are you sure about that Andy?

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/politics/fox-news-different-reactions-regarding-negotiations-with-north-korea


Very sure, Fox News’ stance on Obama and Trump is no surprise to anyone. Ask a liberal type trump hater and watch them grit their teeth at the very thought of saying anything positive.....

Your prejudice blinds you on this, as on UK issues. Trump gets credit when he acts sensibly and responsibly. He is much more liberal than the mainstream Republicans, never mind the right wing, on social issues and areas like healthcare and gun control, and he gets credit for that. And when he comes out with standard right-wing views, say on taxes, that you might hear from Bush, for example, it is at least a reasonable viewpoint that we might agree or disagree with, and is treated as normal discourse. But when the President comes out with ridiculous statements, as he frequently does, it gets the derision it deserves. Unfortunately, there are many times when these seem to outweigh the sensible stuff.

I don’t have any predudice because I really couldn’t give a monkeys either way about Trump. However it’s pretty clear even on this thread for example where he cops a lot of pisstaking and rarely if ever any positive comments. It’s that prejudice by people clearly tilted by him so hard they can’t bring themselves to say anything good.

I refer back to my comment regarding Obama would be getting huge praise if he was in trumps shoes on the North Korea issue. Then people can hardly say a good word about Trump on that issue, it’s quite funny actually......

Kim comitted to denuclearisation back in April when he met South Korea's president.   Let's just say it is unclear how much has been achieved this time.   Fair play if Trump plays his part in peace talk and if the North Korean people achieve freedoms. 

Not sure Obama would get universal plaudits for shaking hands with the tyrant.  People who have read about North Korea's past are bound to have reservations.

That statement about Obama is just wrong. He got praise from some outlets, but lambasted by the right-wing media and politicians for saying he would meet Kim, and have you forgotten already the reactions when he met Castro? I don't see liberal outlets or politicians laying into Trump on Korea the way Obama was crucified on those two occasions. Trump is getting a much fairer hearing than Obama did, but your prejudice against liberals leads you to make historically inaccurate assertions.


Wrong  Of course it’s not......

Obama was always going to get blasted my some people, but there was also a significant amount of praise for the very little he did, which obviously didn’t include anything as significant as actually meeting KJU. In comparison just look at the media right now about Trump, a large proportion of it is negative, 100% Obama would be getting a more positive balance of the press. Same on here, nearly all that hate Trump can’t bring themselves to say anything positive about him because the are predjudiced. Go on.......admit it.........you are too.....
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