I've not seen this before. (how to rule)

[thetank]

An obviously inexperienced player at the table. Even the suckers have spotted that he's the sucker. He's around as perceptive and quick at learning things as a visually-impaired glazed donut.
His actions up to this point suggest that only around 10% of him is there. Not just a newbie, this guy was a total glue-sniffer. We'll call him Kob.

Freezeout stage of a re-buy tournament. Early position raises to 6 * BB, Kob calls (shockeroonie) and everyone else folds.
Flop and turn are check fests. Raiser thinks for a while on river then checks, Kob (who is in copydex land) sticks in a 500 chip saying "I call"

The raiser says, "he can't do that, he says he's called, that's just a check"
The dealer (self dealt) agrees and flings the 500 chip back at Kob (who would be very confused if he gave a hoot about wht was going on) and told the players to flip their cards over.
Kob has top pair, beating raisers 2nd pair.

Should the bet stand? If you toss in a chip saying "I call" when it is checked to you, are you held to a check?

I felt a bit sorry for Kob, if the raiser had a hand, instead of 2nd pair, I'm sure he wouldn't have insisted Kob's bet be returned. The chips would have gone in and no-one would have batted an eyelid.

I was unsure, and not involved, so kept my mouth shut.
How would you rule if a similar incident became a point of contention?

[AdamM]

dealer should ask kob what his intentions are. he's gained nothing fom this action, make him aware it's "check or bet" and let him act. the raiser would say take the bet back, he knows he's beat.

[Gryffles]

You can only make one action per round, if he has physically pushed chips across the line I believe that should stand.
In this case you can ascertain the players intent and that he will give a genuine answer, however what do you do when someone does it and you think they are angleshooting?
If you allow it here then is the rule uniform or not?
If its not uniform then its not really a rule is it? If it is uniform, everyone knows whats happening and there ( should ) be no arguments.

[thetank]

Personally, I think the bet should stand.

Fair enough, verbal declarations take precedence, but he has declared "call" and not "check"
As Gryffles says, you need to ensure that you rule a certain way on this to protect against angle shooting.

Someone could pull this on the river in an attempt to feign strength and evade being looked up for their bluff "call" on the end. If the opponent made for their chips they could argue that the other guys "call" did not stand and they effectively get a free bluff at the pot on the river.

[madasahatstand]

i think the dealer should have clarified whether it was a call or raise. on online poker it does it all for you so its automatic pilot. when i went to the cincinatti club i put chips in and said raise when i should have said bet. the table was fine about it but all folded as they thought i had given away the fact i had a good hand (which i did).  its up to the dealer to clarify unless there is a jobsworth at the table who wants it by the book. if they guy put his chips in but didnt say the right thing, id clarify and let the bet count as a raise

mad

[thetank]

i think the dealer should have clarified whether it was a call or raise.

The issue is more whether it was a check or a bet. There was no bet to him at the time so he could not call.
If there was a bet, and he said "call" there would be no problem regardless of how many chips went in. The verbal declaration would stand.

Just to clarify (not in a mood  )

[madasahatstand]

ok so the other guy checks so this only leaves our chap with check or raise. where does the call come in? its an obvious mistake. the guy wanted to raise in my opinion. its still up to the dealer to clarify and give the guy a wee lesson in langauge

glad you are not in a mood today. didnt like the idea of you turning into a moody teenager or  HAVING THAT ROCKSTAR 'attitude'. can we safely assume happy tank has resurfaced?   

[AdamM]

a call is a bet, albeit a passive one. his intention was clearly to put money into the pot.

[thetank]

Possible stroke to be pulled.....

You're new in a cardroom, for all anyone else knows you've not played before.

It's near the bubble.

You have   and make a pre-flop raise, the, usually aggressive, blind calls.

The flop comes      
He checks, you bet around the size of pot. The blind calls.

You'd like to showdown right now and see who's hand is good. Checking behind your opponent on the turn will show weakness and he may put you to an uncomfortable desicion to all your chips on the river.

The opponent checks when the   lands on the turn. Instead of checking, you pretend you're talking to someone and arn't concentrating, you place a large bet in the middle whilst saying "call"

The dealer asks for clarification if you meant to bet or check. You say you want to just check. Your opponent now knows that you are likely to call a bet and will be less likely to bluff at you on the river.

The rver comes a blank and your opponent checks, your opponent shows   and you show your   that you may otherwise have been bluffed off.

You stroking bar-steward.  

[madasahatstand]

yes i can see how this tactic could work but not for very long. maybe one or two hands before the dealer tells him to get his act together. if he keeps doing it, ensure if he puts the chips in its a raise and tell him that this will be the case if he does it again.

[AdamM]

but if he's moved chips forward it's a bet. thats why the bet stands

[allym]

Hmmmmmmmm [scratches chin in a thought provoking manner]! Would the best course of action not be to return the 'called' 500 chip and ask Kob whether he wanted to check or bet?

[AdamM]

that was my first thought, but if you're looking for check or bet it's more of a bet so if you thought kob was angle shooting you rule bet stands.

[allym]

I'm not sure what angle shooting is, sorry! What if he Kob didn't intend to bet though? If pre-flop and you're on the button for example and theres been a bet before the action gets round without you realising and you call the BB, from my limited experience you would usually get a chance to rethink your decision and retrieve your original call if you didn't want to call the bet! If the raiser had the best hand I'm sure he would've been willing to allow the 500 to stand as a bet, I know I would and the same goes for Kob!

[thetank]

Another argument to making the bet stand.

It'd clear that there are two possible actions for him. Bet or check.
Saying "call" as he puts chips in is just nonsense. He wouldn't be allowed to take his bet back if he put his chips in while saying "sausages" Chips went across the line, he should be held to it.

I know it's not really fair to overly punish newbies. Everwhere I go is quick to enforce the string bet rule though.

It's unlikely to hurt a newbie that bad either.

If the raiser had the best hand I'm sure he would've been willing to allow the 500 to stand as a bet

Most new players are loose passive calling stations. An experienced player with a strong hand will rarely attempt to check raise them, knowing that their fishy opponent is unlikly to bet and very likely to call. The most likely scenario is either the better winning the pot uncontested or him being called and having a showdown (that they were prepared to pay chips for anyway)

Contrast this to enfocing the string bet rule, a new player intends to make their first pre-flop raise an hour into the competition by sticking in a high denomination chip without saying anything.
In Glasgow, (not sure what it's like in the rest of the country) the whole table jumps on them telling them that it's just a call.
This hurts the newbie bad, they've not only given away the strength of their hand, but they're letting everyone get the chance to come in cheap and bust them.

My conclusion after thinking about it is that the bet should stand and enforcing such a rule does not overly punish the new player who makes the mistake by accident. Failure to make such a bet stand opens the door for strokes of the type that I outlined above.