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JoeBeevers
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« Reply #285 on: October 08, 2014, 05:54:12 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4 |
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arbboy
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« Reply #286 on: October 08, 2014, 05:59:59 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4I have just watched this Joe hence my question. I don't get it. Sorry if i am missing something as i don't know how they manufacture cards but surely if one card is accidently cut incorrectly then it will be totally random and could be the ace, two king etc etc or all the cards in a given deck are cut imperfectly in which case where is the edge unless it's been done on purpose by the manufacturer on certain cards to give players in the know an edge? Confused! |
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JoeBeevers
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« Reply #287 on: October 08, 2014, 06:05:40 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4I have just watched this Joe hence my question. I don't get it. Sorry if i am missing something as i don't know how they manufacture cards but surely if one card is accidently cut incorrectly then it will be totally random and could be the ace, two king etc etc or all the cards in a given deck are cut imperfectly in which case where is the edge unless it's been done on purpose by the manufacturer on certain cards to give players in the know an edge? Confused! It's all cards in the deck. By inverting one card, or one type of card, you can identify it before it is dealt. Effectively it is marking the cards. |
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doubleup
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« Reply #288 on: October 08, 2014, 06:07:21 PM » |
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imagine for the sake of argument that there is a big red blob on one side edge of the cards. You ask the dealer to turn the big red blob to the left hand side for a "good" card. He then puts that in the box to hold used cards in that orientation. So the pack goes into the shuffle machine and the orientation isn't changed. Then the shuffled pack is put into the shoe. The red blobs will be visible at the bottom of the card in the shoe, if the card is "good"
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JoeBeevers
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« Reply #289 on: October 08, 2014, 06:07:37 PM » |
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arbboy
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« Reply #290 on: October 08, 2014, 06:23:30 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4I have just watched this Joe hence my question. I don't get it. Sorry if i am missing something as i don't know how they manufacture cards but surely if one card is accidently cut incorrectly then it will be totally random and could be the ace, two king etc etc or all the cards in a given deck are cut imperfectly in which case where is the edge unless it's been done on purpose by the manufacturer on certain cards to give players in the know an edge? Confused! It's all cards in the deck. By inverting one card, or one type of card, you can identify it before it is dealt. Effectively it is marking the cards. So if all cards in deck have the same fault where is the edge for the player? I still don't get it. |
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redsimon
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« Reply #291 on: October 08, 2014, 06:26:12 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4I have just watched this Joe hence my question. I don't get it. Sorry if i am missing something as i don't know how they manufacture cards but surely if one card is accidently cut incorrectly then it will be totally random and could be the ace, two king etc etc or all the cards in a given deck are cut imperfectly in which case where is the edge unless it's been done on purpose by the manufacturer on certain cards to give players in the know an edge? Confused! It's all cards in the deck. By inverting one card, or one type of card, you can identify it before it is dealt. Effectively it is marking the cards. So if all cards in deck have the same fault where is the edge for the player? I still don't get it. Because the player asked for specific cards to be "turned around"? |
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arbboy
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« Reply #292 on: October 08, 2014, 06:30:20 PM » |
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Can someone explain to me how using this deck(s) of cards which was not perfectly cut how does that help the player know what card is underneath? Surely if the cards are not cut correctly during manufacture then all the cards will have the same imperfect pattern on them? What am i missing here? Unless the manufacturer is deliberately marking certain cards different to others in which case surely there would be a law suit against the manufacturers from the casinos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JQVfVtpSYp4I have just watched this Joe hence my question. I don't get it. Sorry if i am missing something as i don't know how they manufacture cards but surely if one card is accidently cut incorrectly then it will be totally random and could be the ace, two king etc etc or all the cards in a given deck are cut imperfectly in which case where is the edge unless it's been done on purpose by the manufacturer on certain cards to give players in the know an edge? Confused! It's all cards in the deck. By inverting one card, or one type of card, you can identify it before it is dealt. Effectively it is marking the cards. So if all cards in deck have the same fault where is the edge for the player? I still don't get it. Because the player asked for specific cards to be "turned around"? Ok i get that now. ty for the video. That video is much better at explaining the advantage than the previous one. Surely a shimmy shuffle in between shoes by the dealer would kill any advantage edge sorting would have (although its obviously time consuming)? If that is too time consuming just turning part of the deck during a shuffle is easy enough to do with no time lost as well if you suspect edge sorting is being used which they must surely have realised with Ivey at Crockford's. I assume it's just lax procedures by casino management which allows this to ever happen? |
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« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 06:35:57 PM by arbboy »
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doubleup
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« Reply #293 on: October 08, 2014, 06:48:54 PM » |
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They insist on shuffle machines, I told you above
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #294 on: October 08, 2014, 06:49:34 PM » |
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It isn't lax procedures. It is deliberately amending procedures to satisfy a customer request. Go in to a "bottom end" casino which targets getting 500 people through the door and taking £50 off each of them and tell them that you want the roulette dealer to always pass you chips with their left hand. They will tell you to jog on. Now go into a high end casino with a $10M facility and make the same request and you'll get it, if that is what you want. Same chain, same dealer procedure manual.
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arbboy
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« Reply #295 on: October 08, 2014, 06:54:44 PM » |
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It isn't lax procedures. It is deliberately amending procedures to satisfy a customer request. Go in to a "bottom end" casino which targets getting 500 people through the door and taking £50 off each of them and tell them that you want the roulette dealer to always pass you chips with their left hand. They will tell you to jog on. Now go into a high end casino with a $10M facility and make the same request and you'll get it, if that is what you want. Same chain, same dealer procedure manual.
What high roller is ever going to ask for these procedures to occur without edge sorting being the reason? This is why i believe Genting might have agreed to it knowing they could free roll Ivey as stated before. |
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #296 on: October 08, 2014, 07:01:48 PM » |
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Hi rollers like to feel important. They want special treatment. They have their own superstitions. It is not at all uncommon for a hi-roller to make demands "I only want to be dealt to by females" a frequent example.
No rational reason for it, no edge being sought or gained, just that's how they....er....roll.
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arbboy
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« Reply #297 on: October 08, 2014, 07:03:15 PM » |
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Hi rollers like to feel important. They want special treatment. They have their own superstitions. It is not at all uncommon for a hi-roller to make demands "I only want to be dealt to by females" a frequent example.
No rational reason for it, no edge being sought or gained, just that's how they....er....roll.
Sure i agree with that totally. However, when they ask for every possible edge sorting tactic surely alarm bells are going off? Especially when it's the world biggest poker player making them? |
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #298 on: October 08, 2014, 07:04:37 PM » |
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For the particular stuff asked for in this case... it points to a very obvious attempt to edge sort. What level of knowledge the gaming staff had of that prior to this case.. idk. I wouldn't be surprised if there were security professionals employed by casinos that had never heard of it. I would have assumed that Crockfords would pay enough to get good employees in. Maybe they didn't.
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FUN4FRASER
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« Reply #299 on: October 08, 2014, 08:24:25 PM » |
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More interestingly, if you were in charge of Crockfords, would you still take his action?
Course they will take his action as long as they don't have to pander to his incredible list of demands they agreed to in the past. Doubt he will be in a rush to give them any action though. He has been massively free rolled by Crockford's though in my opinion. If he had knocked out £4/5m doing this he wouldn't have been able to take it to court and say the only reason he invested those sums was because he had an edge over them rather than the other way around. Crockford's might have even known what he was doing and let him get on with it knowing that if he won they would refuse to pay him and if he did his bollocks then they win. You never know. You would have to assume Crockford's security guys are close to the best in the business given the sums of money involved in their establishment on a daily basis and might have even known about these cards being marked like this. VWP to Crockford's if this was the case and having Ivey over on a freeroll.Arb...really respect your opinion but can you expand on the above please ? Are you saying Crockfords either won his money in the game or withheld his money if he won... hence a free roll ? |
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