blonde poker forum

11x BB left, the blinds to get through, shortstack by some way, usual tiered payout structure ($1k 5th, $5k first)......auto push?


** $8,000 GTD $250 Freezeout: (1000.00|2000.00 )



- willlbur sitting in seat 2 with $24657.50

- X200MEH sitting in seat 3 with $31265.00

- coolhandan sitting in seat 5 with $35080.00

- iceross sitting in seat 8 with $40142.50

- TightEnd sitting in seat 10 with $11355.00 [Dealer]



willlbur posted the small blind - $500.00

X200MEH posted the big blind - $1000.00



** Dealing card to TightEnd:  Ks Qd

coolhandan folded

iceross folded

TightEnd went all-in - $11355.00

willlbur called - $11355.00

X200MEH folded

willlbur shows:  Ad Qd



** Dealing the flop:  7c 9c Qc



** Dealing the turn:  Ahrt



** Dealing the river: 8s

willlbur wins $23710.00 from the main pot

I'd push, I don't like to make a raise when it would leave me with less than 10BB's.

i raise 3 xbb and fold to an all in bet that almost certainly comes from an ace or pair.
You have one more round to find a better hand if you have to fold.
I may be wrong but i see a push getting called by any ace or pair because of the raiser, his stack size and position. I would call with either of those hands in the blinds to your raise.

i limp but thats because i am passive these days!

how often are you going to find those hands in the blinds? in tighty's spot, there are 1225 possible combo's for either blind to have.. theres 6 ways to make any pair (apart from Q's or K's, which is 3 ways) and theres 16 ways to make any Ace (apart from AQ or AK which is 9 ways)

(6*11) + (3*2) + (16*11) + (9*2) which is 266 hands... 266/1225 is 21% of the time, so if you are only calling 21% of the time in this spot, then tightly winning the blinds 79% of the time makes it a trivially easy Jam (with pretty much any two). Remember that even when you do call, he is going to have about 40% equity or so, which makes it even more appealing

As for raising and folding to a Jam, hes getting at this stage roughly  2/1 on his money and if you are pushing any ace/pair, hes again about 40%... so he needs 33% to call and his equity is 40%.. huge overlay.. so theres no way he can raise and then fold to a Jam, given your jamming range, unless he has an avid dislike of money

You then say he has one more round to find a better hand.. go get a deck of cards, and just run a few trials, the table is 5 handed. What are the chances of him getting dealt a hand better then QK in those 5 hands? and more importantly, what are the chances of him getting a better hand then that, in an unopened pot, on the button? His cards are secondary when the pot is unopened.. its an obligatory jam with almost any two. Finding better spots is more important short handed then finding better cards. id rather have 5/6 suited on the button unopened then a pair of sixes in the cutoff when the UTG has raised, even though 66 is much better then 56

I'll usually push there too.

Unless I'm waiting for 36o.

i figure he has 7 hands to find a decent hand. Also giving the other players 7 hands to knock someone else out. Of course you are right with all your maths evaluation totalise. Tighty riska all his chips here to increase his stack size by 12% if his push has the desired result and by how much does that increase his chances of winning the tourney? Enough to warrant potentially exiting the tournament? I'd rather hang in there and a raise fold gives me the answer to my question of wether my hand is good allows me to continue.

i probably limp here too, or maybe 3 x bb with the possibility of passing

The thing is, you have to win all the chips to win the tourney. If you are folding a hand like QK on the button 5 handed with a smallish stack, how do you propose to gather all the chips? No matter what you do, you will be risking elimination at some stage, and by the time you have folded all the unopened pots and are down to 5 or 6 blinds, you would be gagging to get a hand as good as QK.. and even then, you will only be doubling up to the same chip position you are in now

EV and odds govern most of my play because I like to give myself the best chance to win all the tournies I play in, not just the ones where the deck smacks me in the face.

As a simple illistration.. lets say tightly gets his stack in here and is up against A3 os

40% of the time he has 22BB's, the rest he is out

Lets say you raise to raise 3BB's, then fold then spend 10 hands waiting for something better, and find yourself down to 6BB's, and get something great, like AK vs J7os.. you double up there, and find yourself with it again! AK vs J7... you are about 67% to win.. so from 6BB's.. you get to 24BB's 44% of the time (.67*.67) but you really need to hammer the deck AND get a caller with an inferior hand to do so.... which is quite the parlay

I fear we have an insitrinsic difference to poker, you seem to be more reliant on survival, my ethos is garnered towards odds/EV and a fear of what will happen if we spend too many chips waiting for that golden situation, because it just doesn't arrive as often as we wish

I hope you take this post in the manner it was intended.. its just a difference of playing style, and for that, no-one can be criticized

very tough to bet 3k then fold

11 bb's is too much to be pushing K hi imo.

If you had 6-7 bb's then fine but its silly here, you can push with crap when short later if u dont find anything while u are waiting.

A limp here and you nearly always win the pot without risking your stack, and occasionally u will out kick an oppo when u both hit top pair.

its certainly not "silly", what a strange comment.

"you nearly always win the pot" if you limp huh? then thats certainly the best play with QK, and its certainly the best play with 2/7 os, and any other hand you find, given its frequency of success!


"and occasionally u will out kick an oppo when u both hit top pair" you also occasionally try and steal pots when you have given both blinds a real cheap look at the flop, and THEN you try and steal the pot once they flop something. I got a pretty good idea which one is more likely as well

treating QK like its junk short-handed and shallow stacked seems a real strange thing to do, not that I try and discourage people from doing it, in fact its somethin that I like to see


Anyways, jamming/folding/calling.. all of them are acceptable some of the time, I just have an opinion which one I prefer most of the time.

Regards

limp = NOT AN OPTION, if you miss then one of the blinds has probably hit. - and if you miss, do you push on the flop when the blinds both check? NO! - or If one of the blinds bets out and you hit nothing then you can't call. - you lost 1000, when 1000 is 10% of your stack!

Raise and fold = NOT AN OPTION - why put in 3*BB with the intention of folding to a reraise when you only have 11BB left? - thats over 1/4 of your stack! and leaves you with only 8BB's on a 5 handed table - too low!

You either have to just fold here, which is a weak option but you do have another round left in your stack before your too low but the preferred option is the one you took - you have to push all-in here and hope you don't run into a hand thus picking up the blinds.  However it is highly unlikely you get called by a worse hand - i suppose the best you can hope for is a fold or to be called by J-J, 10-10, 9-9 etc.  The problem with pushing QK is your gonna be highly dominated by alot of hands that will call you such as AA, KK, AK, QQ, AQ.

The problem is that most reasonable players know that this is the stage you are pushing because you dont wan't automatic calls against you. For this reason they may lower their calling requirements. You were ul to be dominated against AQ, but you are behind to A-rag and if their stack can sustain it then they may also call you.

Why play solid poker and throw your game away on KQ in an unraised pot? At this stage I amy push with a reasonable ace or possibly a smaller/medium pair. Providing that I can get em in first I amy be forced to take on a race, but its my terms. KQ is just horrible.

I disagree that limping is not an option. A lot will depend on your table image, but you have 2 big cards and if you believe that you can get to see a flop without being raised in (limping may look stronger from a short stack) then you have two ways to play. 1) you may hit the flop or 2) you can possibly stop'n' go on a non ace flop depending on your read of the opponents in the pot.

How can you stop n go when you're on the button?

How can you stop n go when nobody has raised?

When Raymer invented the term "stop n go" it had a very tight definition. Has it evolved to be something completely different that I haven't noticed?

No byron it hasn't  :D

thanks for the debate guys.....



Would anyone have folded then?

Sorry - helps if I read the hand properly. I saw TE pushed first and was the short stack, assumed he was UTG. I didn't realise the call came from the blinds.

However, this still doesn't alter my thinking that KQ is not the hand I want to go bust with.

 i agree with junior on this, i would have pushed 100 times out of 100

 you are the short stack but you are not in desperation mode yet

 2 folds before you and KQ on the button, you cant raise to 300 - 400 cos you are pretty much committing yourself to the pot

 i wouldnt limp cos it is too weak ( KQ on the button is quite a good hand shorthanded )

 i definitely wouldnt fold , so what can you do ?

 you dont win tournaments folding so get your chips in you could have 2 live cards , you could get a loose call and be in front , you could be up against a pair and be 50/50

 you HAVE to go for it here , no other play in my opinion

At this stage, while you still have some fold equity, you have to push all in and wish for the best.

11 x bb is not in a terrible situation, nor is 7/8 x bb. Raising 3 x bb is showing strength, re raising someones who's just done that, shows even more strength. Theres nothing wrong with pushing. But your only getting called i think if your behind, which would be a shame to go so deep in a tourney then lose a hand like that. in my opinion there is nothing wrong with raising 1/4 of your stack and passing in the right situation. If i had to pass after id raised, id get in back on the next hand, or the hand after that by pushing my remaining 6/7 bb.

I like the push here.  Your only other option is fold.  There's no amount you can raise that doesn't commit you anyway.

Given your relative chip stack to the others there's a chance that people might try and take you out with worse holdings than the standard Any Ace, any pair.  I think you might get calls here from hands such as KJ, QJ, maybe JT depending on the players, as they know that they can all advance up the scale without crippling themselves by knocking you out.

You were just unlucky to run into one of the hands you really didn't want to see.

Sheriff

I agree,  The other thing to consider is in the next 7 hands you are never going to have it folded round to you with just 2 players to act after you.  This is *probably* as good as it will get.  Looking at chip stacks alone I cant see either of the blinds calling with ace rag, they would need a big ace to call, you were just unlucky that someone found one.

 I am a fairly cautious (I cant even commit to 'cautious') player and even I would push all in here.   

I dont hate the raise with the intention of folding as much as everyone else,  if I was in the blinds and a short stacked button rasied <3 times the BB, I would be suspicious and it would take a good hand for me to call and a monster for me to reraise. 

I am still limping here, i dont go into blind panic push with dominated hand mode till 7 bb's

im pusing everytime here. It was just unfortunate you ran into AQ

the answer to this question lies in the motivation that Tighty has to play the game.

- If it is to finish as far into the money as possible, then its a fold

- If it is to win the tournament, then you are going all in.

I dont really see any middle ground here.

I needed to double up quick to get me in the mix to win the tournament. I was guaranteed $1k for fifth already....3rd and 4th were of less importance to me once I had got 5th, which was the final payout spot.

I push.

ALL IN

In fact I might push with a a lot less too.

*Nods knowingly*

i might too, but i limp KQ :D

In fact I might not even look at them and push....... :)up

Tell us something we don't know ;goodvevil;

Seriously, if you push and are called you are getting around 27/22 your money. If you are called with any ace that doesnt have you dominated you are only just getting bad value (around 11/8 or 6/4 to win the hand if he has up to ace 10 or ace jack) and that is IF you are called, the sb needs to call almost half his stack and passes about 90% of hands here, you just found him with a dominating hand. If you get this bet through you have increased your stack by about 12%.

For me its a deffo push.

Easy All-in , theres noway you can fold , just one of those no way out situations . ul ;reallyamsorry;

totalise, i don't know who you are but you show an advanced understanding of tournament play and I'd advise everyone to go back and reread totalise' posts on this thread.

there is an argument for not going completely all in but commiting yourself to the pot but it involves way more typing!