Everyone pushes here?

[TightEnd]

11x BB left, the blinds to get through, shortstack by some way, usual tiered payout structure ($1k 5th, $5k first)......auto push?


** $8,000 GTD $250 Freezeout: (1000.00|2000.00 )



- willlbur sitting in seat 2 with $24657.50

- X200MEH sitting in seat 3 with $31265.00

- coolhandan sitting in seat 5 with $35080.00

- iceross sitting in seat 8 with $40142.50

- TightEnd sitting in seat 10 with $11355.00 [Dealer]



willlbur posted the small blind - $500.00

X200MEH posted the big blind - $1000.00



** Dealing card to TightEnd: 

coolhandan folded

iceross folded

TightEnd went all-in - $11355.00

willlbur called - $11355.00

X200MEH folded

willlbur shows: 



** Dealing the flop: 



** Dealing the turn: 



** Dealing the river:

willlbur wins $23710.00 from the main pot

[NoflopsHomer]

I'd push, I don't like to make a raise when it would leave me with less than 10BB's.

[ACE2M]

i raise 3 xbb and fold to an all in bet that almost certainly comes from an ace or pair.
You have one more round to find a better hand if you have to fold.
I may be wrong but i see a push getting called by any ace or pair because of the raiser, his stack size and position. I would call with either of those hands in the blinds to your raise.

[Royal Flush]

i limp but thats because i am passive these days!

[totalise]

i raise 3 xbb and fold to an all in bet that almost certainly comes from an ace or pair.
You have one more round to find a better hand if you have to fold.
I may be wrong but i see a push getting called by any ace or pair because of the raiser, his stack size and position. I would call with either of those hands in the blinds to your raise.

how often are you going to find those hands in the blinds? in tighty's spot, there are 1225 possible combo's for either blind to have.. theres 6 ways to make any pair (apart from Q's or K's, which is 3 ways) and theres 16 ways to make any Ace (apart from AQ or AK which is 9 ways)

(6*11) + (3*2) + (16*11) + (9*2) which is 266 hands... 266/1225 is 21% of the time, so if you are only calling 21% of the time in this spot, then tightly winning the blinds 79% of the time makes it a trivially easy Jam (with pretty much any two). Remember that even when you do call, he is going to have about 40% equity or so, which makes it even more appealing

As for raising and folding to a Jam, hes getting at this stage roughly  2/1 on his money and if you are pushing any ace/pair, hes again about 40%... so he needs 33% to call and his equity is 40%.. huge overlay.. so theres no way he can raise and then fold to a Jam, given your jamming range, unless he has an avid dislike of money

You then say he has one more round to find a better hand.. go get a deck of cards, and just run a few trials, the table is 5 handed. What are the chances of him getting dealt a hand better then QK in those 5 hands? and more importantly, what are the chances of him getting a better hand then that, in an unopened pot, on the button? His cards are secondary when the pot is unopened.. its an obligatory jam with almost any two. Finding better spots is more important short handed then finding better cards. id rather have 5/6 suited on the button unopened then a pair of sixes in the cutoff when the UTG has raised, even though 66 is much better then 56

[thetank]

I'll usually push there too.

Unless I'm waiting for 36o.

[ACE2M]

i raise 3 xbb and fold to an all in bet that almost certainly comes from an ace or pair.
You have one more round to find a better hand if you have to fold.
I may be wrong but i see a push getting called by any ace or pair because of the raiser, his stack size and position. I would call with either of those hands in the blinds to your raise.

how often are you going to find those hands in the blinds? in tighty's spot, there are 1225 possible combo's for either blind to have.. theres 6 ways to make any pair (apart from Q's or K's, which is 3 ways) and theres 16 ways to make any Ace (apart from AQ or AK which is 9 ways)

(6*11) + (3*2) + (16*11) + (9*2) which is 266 hands... 266/1225 is 21% of the time, so if you are only calling 21% of the time in this spot, then tightly winning the blinds 79% of the time makes it a trivially easy Jam (with pretty much any two). Remember that even when you do call, he is going to have about 40% equity or so, which makes it even more appealing

As for raising and folding to a Jam, hes getting at this stage roughly  2/1 on his money and if you are pushing any ace/pair, hes again about 40%... so he needs 33% to call and his equity is 40%.. huge overlay.. so theres no way he can raise and then fold to a Jam, given your jamming range, unless he has an avid dislike of money

You then say he has one more round to find a better hand.. go get a deck of cards, and just run a few trials, the table is 5 handed. What are the chances of him getting dealt a hand better then QK in those 5 hands? and more importantly, what are the chances of him getting a better hand then that, in an unopened pot, on the button? His cards are secondary when the pot is unopened.. its an obligatory jam with almost any two. Finding better spots is more important short handed then finding better cards. id rather have 5/6 suited on the button unopened then a pair of sixes in the cutoff when the UTG has raised, even though 66 is much better then 56

i figure he has 7 hands to find a decent hand. Also giving the other players 7 hands to knock someone else out. Of course you are right with all your maths evaluation totalise. Tighty riska all his chips here to increase his stack size by 12% if his push has the desired result and by how much does that increase his chances of winning the tourney? Enough to warrant potentially exiting the tournament? I'd rather hang in there and a raise fold gives me the answer to my question of wether my hand is good allows me to continue.

[Sunday8pm]

i limp but thats because i am passive these days!

i probably limp here too, or maybe 3 x bb with the possibility of passing

[totalise]

The thing is, you have to win all the chips to win the tourney. If you are folding a hand like QK on the button 5 handed with a smallish stack, how do you propose to gather all the chips? No matter what you do, you will be risking elimination at some stage, and by the time you have folded all the unopened pots and are down to 5 or 6 blinds, you would be gagging to get a hand as good as QK.. and even then, you will only be doubling up to the same chip position you are in now

EV and odds govern most of my play because I like to give myself the best chance to win all the tournies I play in, not just the ones where the deck smacks me in the face.

As a simple illistration.. lets say tightly gets his stack in here and is up against A3 os

40% of the time he has 22BB's, the rest he is out

Lets say you raise to raise 3BB's, then fold then spend 10 hands waiting for something better, and find yourself down to 6BB's, and get something great, like AK vs J7os.. you double up there, and find yourself with it again! AK vs J7... you are about 67% to win.. so from 6BB's.. you get to 24BB's 44% of the time (.67*.67) but you really need to hammer the deck AND get a caller with an inferior hand to do so.... which is quite the parlay

I fear we have an insitrinsic difference to poker, you seem to be more reliant on survival, my ethos is garnered towards odds/EV and a fear of what will happen if we spend too many chips waiting for that golden situation, because it just doesn't arrive as often as we wish

I hope you take this post in the manner it was intended.. its just a difference of playing style, and for that, no-one can be criticized

[fergus8]

very tough to bet 3k then fold

[Royal Flush]

11 bb's is too much to be pushing K hi imo.

If you had 6-7 bb's then fine but its silly here, you can push with crap when short later if u dont find anything while u are waiting.

A limp here and you nearly always win the pot without risking your stack, and occasionally u will out kick an oppo when u both hit top pair.

[totalise]

its certainly not "silly", what a strange comment.

"you nearly always win the pot" if you limp huh? then thats certainly the best play with QK, and its certainly the best play with 2/7 os, and any other hand you find, given its frequency of success!


"and occasionally u will out kick an oppo when u both hit top pair" you also occasionally try and steal pots when you have given both blinds a real cheap look at the flop, and THEN you try and steal the pot once they flop something. I got a pretty good idea which one is more likely as well

treating QK like its junk short-handed and shallow stacked seems a real strange thing to do, not that I try and discourage people from doing it, in fact its somethin that I like to see


Anyways, jamming/folding/calling.. all of them are acceptable some of the time, I just have an opinion which one I prefer most of the time.

Regards

[Junior Senior]

limp = NOT AN OPTION, if you miss then one of the blinds has probably hit. - and if you miss, do you push on the flop when the blinds both check? NO! - or If one of the blinds bets out and you hit nothing then you can't call. - you lost 1000, when 1000 is 10% of your stack!

Raise and fold = NOT AN OPTION - why put in 3*BB with the intention of folding to a reraise when you only have 11BB left? - thats over 1/4 of your stack! and leaves you with only 8BB's on a 5 handed table - too low!

You either have to just fold here, which is a weak option but you do have another round left in your stack before your too low but the preferred option is the one you took - you have to push all-in here and hope you don't run into a hand thus picking up the blinds.  However it is highly unlikely you get called by a worse hand - i suppose the best you can hope for is a fold or to be called by J-J, 10-10, 9-9 etc.  The problem with pushing QK is your gonna be highly dominated by alot of hands that will call you such as AA, KK, AK, QQ, AQ.

[Highstack]

The problem is that most reasonable players know that this is the stage you are pushing because you dont wan't automatic calls against you. For this reason they may lower their calling requirements. You were ul to be dominated against AQ, but you are behind to A-rag and if their stack can sustain it then they may also call you.

Why play solid poker and throw your game away on KQ in an unraised pot? At this stage I amy push with a reasonable ace or possibly a smaller/medium pair. Providing that I can get em in first I amy be forced to take on a race, but its my terms. KQ is just horrible.

I disagree that limping is not an option. A lot will depend on your table image, but you have 2 big cards and if you believe that you can get to see a flop without being raised in (limping may look stronger from a short stack) then you have two ways to play. 1) you may hit the flop or 2) you can possibly stop'n' go on a non ace flop depending on your read of the opponents in the pot.

[byronkincaid]

you can possibly stop'n' go on a non ace flop depending on your read of the opponents in the pot.

How can you stop n go when you're on the button?

How can you stop n go when nobody has raised?

When Raymer invented the term "stop n go" it had a very tight definition. Has it evolved to be something completely different that I haven't noticed?