blonde poker forum

Ok how about this one...should I have kept my customer and taken down a smaller pot ?

Boyles Irish Open this weekend 3000 euro buy-in
I have 17,000 chips, my opponent has about 30k and the average stack is around 24k
Young Thomas from Norway (who won the Masterclassics main event last year) is laughing at me. No one wants to play a pot with me. In the previous hour they have all passed to my Big Blind 3 times. he keeps saying 'respect' and laughing in my face.
Anyways I pick up the dreaded boots. A A in mid position.
blinds are 300/600 and player x limps for 600
Now I don't want to play AA against 4 or 5 limpers but would like to keep my customer (the limper)
So I make it just 2000 to play.
Everyone passes and my limper/customer/player x calls.
there is about 5300 in the pot (incl. some running antes)
the flop is 2 4 8 off suit
and my opponent leads out for 3600 (which appears to be quite a common bluff move in Dublin)
I stare at him and he is terrified. If my instincts are right he has nothing....
So what do I do ?????
Do I weak call and hope he bets again on the turn ?
Or do I pick up the pot here and now by moving all-in?

Well having seen you play aces like this before i'd say you flat called and got them in on the river, crossed your fingers and hoped he hadn't hit his second pair!!
I call and try to get them in on the turn depending on how scary the card is..........

dave, posted this on one of the AA cracked threads, but I took a middle management decision and split the boss' post to form a new hand analysis thread

he needs the advice everyone, he's only a newbie,  go on now.....
 

errrrr

i dont think you are gonna lay down if your next raise is re-raised back at you,its a great flop and I'm assuming all your chips are going in if this is the case....

so in order to halt the possible outdraw....did you go all in right now?

If you read him correctly (fear) then he is behind,

but total guesswork here,did u get all ur chips in after he re-raised back at you for him to outdraw you on the river with the third queen or king giving him the lucky set?with his holding of QQ or KK?

thx for the heads up, you replied while I was moving stuff, cheers

I consider my self reprimanded
 ;hide;

If I was to read my opponent for pocket Kings, Queens or any over pair, I would re-raise back for a totally different reason.
Not because I was scared of the out draw.
I would re-raise back because the turn may scare my opponent and stop him from putting his chips in. Whereas a wear re-raise on the flop will usually be pounced upon by another overpair in this coupe and the lot will normally go in.

reprimanded? absolutely now  ;slavedriver;

 ;scarymoment;

thats scarey...where did you see me do this ?

whoops...my plane has been called...will answer in a few hours

In the £500 at Walsall January last year, dunno if you remember but Simon Nowab won it in the end.

Obviously not knowing the player, but I would find it hard to put him on a big pair - He flat called from early position, and the smooth called a Raise out of position. In my (limited) experience people do sometimes flat call from early with big pairs, but the re-raise the raiser preflop, in the hope to take the hand down then, so they are not playing post flop from out of position.

I could probably put him on any pair from 10's down to 4's , which is the real worry if he has already tripped up on the flop, but in that case why play it so fast post flop. A check is more likely, unless he reads you (correctly) for a big overpair.

So after all that, I think I am thining he is more likely not to have trips, (maybe a pair of 9's), and he thinks he is good. But I am happy to take the pot down at this point, because I think you have maximised your proft already.

I'm flat calling here.

I think the most important factor is the read you had on the guy.

If you really fancy he's got nothing its a bit of a  dwell up and flat call, whereas if you think he's got an over pair i'd be re raising so as to get all in with the guy there and then, like you say a lot of cards can scare jj on the turn

If he makes a strong bet on the turn with another rag fallen then i would re-raise if i was now sure he had a jj, qq, type hand, very difficult for him to get away from it now.

fold

Mike Caro says in his seminal work that weak is strong, so if he is looking petrified, he clearly has top set making this an obligatory pass

Edited coz I dint mean to hit post with just that in it

Anyways, if you think he has nothing, then you likely dont get any more out of him anyways, so just go ahead and raise here.. you say they are petrified of you (lol) so do players double barrel into people they are scared of with pure filth?

maybe he has JJ and maybe he folds, but your begging letter raise preflop should tip him off to an extent that you have something pretty good. I think in these spots, you are basically exposing your stack for pretty much zero if you just call here, as i think in these spots (in general)  people put nothing else in the pot unless they improve to a hand that has AA beat, so yu are trapping urself

you could just mini raise, hoping he think thats weak as opposed to weak-calling, at least it avoids all the above, and gives him a chance to put in the 3-bet

My preference is : Raise > Call > Fold

I think stack size is crucial here, you are below average and are in a 5300 pot with 15k back. When he leads out for 3600 this swells the pot to just under 9k, if you call then its a 12k pot and you have 12k back, it's hard to not see that setting of the alarm bells in his head that you must have something! And if you do flat call are you then ever going to pass for a bet on the turn?

I am trying to get all my chips into this pot, like i said before i think a bluff on the turn here from him would be stupid, however he may have 99/TT etc which he will still lead the turn. As a previous poster said he is giving you action with these hands anyway. So for that reason i think raise is the optimum move here, either he passes his KJos or he ships it in, i don't mind which he does either!

I'd go with your instincts Dave. Move all-in over the top. he called your pre-flop raise so would put him on either 2 picture cards or A-rag in which you have him outgunned. I wouldnt have thought he would have called a raise with pocket 8s or lower. Put the pressure on him and take his chips.

Nic

Why would he call with A-rag but not a low pocket pair?

I smell a rat in this hand, for the same reason totalise does, people are scared to play you and here he is firing chips into you.

For me, the decision here depends solely on what i know about this player. I've seen this lead out bet many times and it can mean just about everything possible and is player dependent.

- Capping the pot with AK/AQ
- Flopped set and wants you to either fold or part with more chips than you would have if he had checked
- Middle pair(overpair) and testing the water

I'm personally expecting an overpair/set here. If you reraise just over a min raise and he calls, i'd expect him to lead out on the turn with an overpair and check with a set. If he reraises you all in, i expect an overpair.

The one hand I was sure he didn't have was an overpair. He would have almost certainly raised before me pre-flop. He also looked like he had nothing when he bet the flop.
I believed he had KQ, KJ suited type hand, Ace Rag or possibly a low pair.

I was pretty sure he hadn't flopped a set because he would almost certainly have trap checked me on the flop which he didn't.
I suppose he could have had 7,8 or 8,9. In which case it is probably a mistake to slow play.

However, I feel i made the correct decision at this point.
I called the 3600.
I wanted to try and get my other 11,300 in as well.

The turn was now an off suit 9.
He now bet 5,500 and what did I do ?

If you think he has absolutely nothing, why not flat call hoping that he'll try to bluff you again on the turn??

If he doesnt try to bluff you on the turn, raise him out and take it down. If he does raise you on the turn and your still sure he has nothing/your still ahead, come back over the top of him and take it down.

Just depends on your read on the turn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

That was meant to go in before your reply.

At this point I would re-raise his 5500 and go all in. Its costing him less than 7000 into a pot of almost 30000. even with KQ he probably has to call unless he has a read on you.

Exactly.
And as pp bolt mentioned earlier...I did give it a bit of a reluctant dwell.
And he did fire again on the turn

This hand depends on your read and info on this guy for sure and also the level you are playing at (yours being higher than most of course)

If you raise back just over min, he is almost duty bound to call, male pride, table image, embarassment, perceived odds etc. and i always pay attention to his next move on the turn. He is only going to part with chips on the turn if he has you strangled, more often than not if he checks, this is the same move as folding after your min raise, however the "pride/image" factor has now disappeared and he can fold without too much worry about how it looked.

By calling, my experiences show me that he will not part with any more chips unless im in trouble. By min raising i have got him to part with double what he wanted to and if i am behind, then i will get some good info on the turn, having only parted with a min raise myself.

In short min raising back here almost guarantees (in my experience) that you will get the call and thus more chips than i think you do by checking.

Its a 3000 euro buy in. At this level, i dont think he cares about embarassment or male pride to the same extent that people do at lower levels. A min raise here would scream out that you have a monster hand. If he has nothing, which DC believes he has, then he cant call a raise with nothing, no matter what his ego says.


If he has nothing and is bluffing, then the only way he can take down this sizeable pot is to bluff again. The guy knows this and i doubt he has amassed more than the chip average and double what DC has by only ever bluffing at a pot once.

Ok if you are so sure on the pride/embarassment, hows about the other two? table image, odds etc. I just don't see this as clear cut at that, many calls are made after having been min raised back where people are holding absolutely nothing. Whether its $3 or $30,000 you are still up against human beings and as i said alot depends on the info at the time.



Its very hard to bluff on the turn if you have been min raised back and you have nothing. If he does come back at you, then that min raise has been quite informational and also far cheaper info. If he does try the bluff then DC has to test his reading of the hand. DC min raises you back after raising preflop and you need to try and pull off a bluff to win the pot - very best of luck to you!!!!!

Dave, i have your opponent on 8-9 right now. With that bet, I don't think he's trying to lose you at this point, after your raise preflop and your call of his bet on a drawless board, he has to put you on an overpair imo.

Interesting. I couldn't make my mind up if I made a mistake at this point.
I was also thinking there is also 23/24000 in the pot before my raise of my last 5700 or so.
So if he had any draw whatsoever he would probably call.

However it certainly looked like a mistake. He was holding 9 J suited. and the river was a second 9.

If he has 99/TT though, is there not a big chance that a card will land on the turn which prevents him betting any more?

Here comes the funny bit though. Now that he has made trips, he is afraid he will lose me. So he decides to give me opportunity to bluff and trap checks to me !
and yes like a mug I walked straight into it.
The funny thing was I had 5000 in big chips and about 700 in small.
I didn't bet the whole lot. I just moved the 5000 in.
But he raised me the last 700.
Whoops!
Now I realise I am beat. I have to call for my 700 in small change and there is something like 34,000 in the middle.
So the humiliation was I had to throw my last 700 in as well knowing I was now beat.
Ouch ! :blonde:

If he had 99 or TT he would have raised before the flop. We were in Dublin! The scandies are afraid to go there !

Conclusion:
In a short one day tourney this may be as good a way as any to play hand. You have to grab just about every opportunity that comes your way if you want to win a std tourney.
However in a 3 day tourney when there is plenty of time it's probably best not to take this amount of risk. I think in this case I should have just raised on the flop and taken down a nice easy pot increasing my stack for 17k to 23k with little risk. Greed is NOT good. There was no need to go for the extra bonuses at this stage (early on day 2)

good thread!


interesting how he fires 5500 in on the turn with top pair middling kicker after you've flat called on the flop...clearly he was thinking far more about his hand than any worry about any hand that you might have to be prepared to rope-a-dope him lime you were obviously doing!

Yes thats why i would raise.....prevent the scare.

Tell me about it, i play on Tribeca all night and paddypower is a sking of it. Yesterday in a hand i was raised all in on the river with 2 pair, there was a flush possible, i went to fold but as i did i clicked on his profile....location 'Dublin' i insta call to see Jack high :D

They are all loons and i love playing them!