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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: AndyG on June 14, 2006, 10:05:00 AM



Title: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: AndyG on June 14, 2006, 10:05:00 AM
Hi everyone, I like many others have been in love with the game of poker for years and have not been suprised by its massive increase in popularity after all it is the true "beautiful game". However along with this increase in popularity I wonder if the game itself has lost some of its beauty, Will we ever again see a final table made up of world class players or will it from now on be a table of 10 with a couple of players who have been lucky enough to avoid damage along the way and the rest of the final table made up of chuck it in with any 2 suited cards and see what happens if its you day its your day. Sure everyone makes moves and it has always been the case you cant win anything without the ablility to do that but am I on my own when I watch players making calls that are beyond comprehension sometimes. Take this weeks WPT (not a small buy in by any means) guys puts a strong raise in pre flop with AA and gets called by K 10 ! where does the K 10 player think he is pre flop ? surely 67 or 89 or a hand like that is a better hand to be just calling the raise with pre flop, does it not occur to the guy that if he is up against AK KK or AA he is in dire trouble if he hits his flop unless he hits what he hit 2 pair that is.

It doesnt matter how strong your starting hand is if your raise gets called by a couple of loons preflop how strong is your hand likely to be after the flop vrs 4 other random cards ? are we reaching the point where poker has become 2 card lottery ?


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: matt674 on June 14, 2006, 10:15:55 AM
Sure everyone makes moves and it has always been the case you cant win anything without the ablility to do that but am I on my own when I watch players making calls that are beyond comprehension sometimes. Take this weeks WPT (not a small buy in by any means) guys puts a strong raise in pre flop with AA and gets called by K 10 ! where does the K 10 player think he is pre flop ? surely 67 or 89 or a hand like that is a better hand to be just calling the raise with pre flop, does it not occur to the guy that if he is up against AK KK or AA he is in dire trouble if he hits his flop unless he hits what he hit 2 pair that is.

It doesnt matter how strong your starting hand is if your raise gets called by a couple of loons preflop how strong is your hand likely to be after the flop vrs 4 other random cards ? are we reaching the point where poker has become 2 card lottery ?

I dont care where they come from but i want people calling my preflop AA raises with K-10 every day of the week - if it doesnt occur to the guy that he is in dire trouble then good, law of averages says i will win more than i will lose and i'll continue to hopefully show a decent profit.

Yes in poker no two cards are unbeatable preflop but i hope that i can use my skill to try and minimize the luck factor as much as possible and whilst yes at the end of the day i cannot control how the cards will fall i hope that in the long run i will be able to outplay my "K-10" calling friend and will continue to build my bankroll while others fall by the wayside......


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 14, 2006, 10:39:55 AM
well said andy ,i see you have been given a lesson by another internmet pro ,unless you have skandi mentality do not bother turning up, you can not protect any hand now because these muppets will call with any two cards there is no skill in lobbing it in,tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.,we have some great players in this country but i think they are getting priced out,but will it ever come back to the good ol days i think not .but we still play don't we (cannon fodder) more like,


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: bolt pp on June 14, 2006, 11:00:30 AM
I completely disagree, I love these guys, they pay my bills.

You dont have to get reads on these guys or play poker against them, just keep on turning over hands consistantly.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: TightEnd on June 14, 2006, 01:08:36 PM
Lets face it tournament poker has a very high short term luck element, during the course of winning any tournament you have to win races, avoid outdraws, get steals and moves through against some of these festival/WPT fields .....its a big ask

and because the new breed of player seems that much more willing to gamble a lot of guys are now taking on more coin flip situations early on in the hope of getting big chips. Firstly to be able to use a big stack but secondly and just importantly to be able to withstand the bad calls that hit etc that once upon a time would have crippled them

I have written on ther main site before about how I think festival fields have changed in this regard...for most the days of sitting and wating for premium cards is over. There are exceptions but I think my argument holds.

Now that the EPT/WPT fields are full of internet players you just have to accept that a number have become extremely wealthy on the back of online...they are hardly going to change their styles when they hit the live scene when it forms such as small part of their bankrolls and they are in the event on the cheap are they?



Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Bongo on June 14, 2006, 01:13:07 PM
tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.

And thus they have you on the back foot regardless of your starting hand, unless you happen to flop an absolute monster of course.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: AndyG on June 14, 2006, 01:59:04 PM
This wasnt meant as any form of slight towards players its just I do have a tinge of sadness that I dont think we will see again a competition final table made up of players that use finese, position and reads to win mainly due to the fact that somewhere along the way they will have been mugged by someone with A4 "SUITED" who had to throw his chips in after his pre flop raise has been reraised cos he is "pot commited" when his original raise is prob only 20% of his stack lol, ofcourse this player will blow his stack at some point with another play at a later date it just depends who is the lucky guy on the day.

As I said this is not a dig at anyone just an observation that in my opinion all comps are now treated like a £20 rebuy and as a player that over the years made a decision to keep moving up buy in levels to avoid this style of play and endless crapshoots I now find it difficult to get a game, but that is my choice.

However I do feel that it is only a matter of time before there are competitions run that are invite only as the growth of televised poker continues, people want to see personalities and craftsman on televised final tables not whoever happened to be lucky that day and will never be seen again 


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Bongo on June 14, 2006, 02:27:55 PM
If you want the beautiful game then watch "High Stakes Poker" full of name players, deep stacks, no blind increases and they can buy more chips at any time. It's a joy to watch.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 14, 2006, 02:56:47 PM
High Stakes poker ,a breath of fresh air, great tv, great players,proper poker,bring it back quickly,Daniel Negrano brings $1,000,000  to the table,he is a class act


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Tonji on June 14, 2006, 04:57:59 PM
If you want the beautiful game then watch "High Stakes Poker" full of name players, deep stacks, no blind increases and they can buy more chips at any time. It's a joy to watch.

 ;iagree; sheer class, alot more finesse than your average TV tournament.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: allym on June 14, 2006, 05:01:45 PM
Spot on Bingo and VANDAM! High Stakes Poker brilliant stuff! Sammy Farha deserves a mention aswell he played pretty much any 2 cards! Roll on series 2!


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: totalise on June 14, 2006, 05:38:34 PM
well said andy ,i see you have been given a lesson by another internmet pro ,unless you have skandi mentality do not bother turning up, you can not protect any hand now because these muppets will call with any two cards there is no skill in lobbing it in,tell me how you can get a read on one of these guys.,we have some great players in this country but i think they are getting priced out,but will it ever come back to the good ol days i think not .but we still play don't we (cannon fodder) more like,

hi Vandam

if this is the case, then you should be a multi-millionaire from poker as long as you play against these people correctly.. as the player profile you mentioned above is the easiest to beat... unless you are just "unlucky" against them

Of course, if you are like many of the old school, I bet the words "how could you call, dont you know what I was representing" are uttered very often


Poker, like any unsolvable game, will go through differing periods of revolution, and the ability to adapt and change is essential to being a winning player. What does your definition of "beautiful game" entail.. sitting there waiting for the nuts? hoping people underbet hands when you are on draws? is this where the problem stems from? because if you have an ounce of common sense, having someone lump in their stack with A4 suited should not be cause for concern

Naturally its easy to blame the internet players.. these are the ones that cause the old timers the most problems.. but when you think about it, the old timers dont cause the internet players any problems whatsoever, they are the people the hotshots want to play against.. so I ask again.. who is playing the game wrong?

Profit source in poker comes from people making mistakes.. if you cant identify where they are making mistakes, or if you are the one making mistakes, it is likely that you are nowhere near as good as you think you are

instead of doing an inward analysis of all this however, just write it off as *bad luck* and blame it on the internet players.... or better yet, blame it on variance.. as long as its someone else playing bad and not you





Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 14, 2006, 06:39:39 PM
i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: thetank on June 14, 2006, 07:18:23 PM
Can't you get away from your overpair?  ;goodvevil;


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: totalise on June 14, 2006, 07:31:06 PM
i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.

if you are losing your entire stack on a 772 or 722 flop, then you might want to take a look at that part of your game rather then saying the other guy played bad. I'd expect better play in a £300 comp

Anyways, its apparent that you are stuck on your ways, and your opinion is such that you will always pour scorn on internet players, so thats the end of my participation in this thread

"nobby head"... gold



Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 14, 2006, 08:29:33 PM
i rest my case not only can they not play they talk out there 3rd eye as well.how long u been playing expert, i looked on poker pages i could'nt see you,or is it you do not play live  (you want to talk to me pm me) and stop boreing the site to death.and me


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: RED-DOG on June 14, 2006, 08:53:42 PM
i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.

In a £1000 buy-in 'live game' at the weekend, on the final table, I moved all in with AKs and was called by a player holding 42os.

The fact that the flop came 422 is irrelevant, I want that call!


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: NoflopsHomer on June 14, 2006, 09:04:56 PM
i have just woken up after reading that,tell me what skill  there is with internet poker i'll tell you nobby head not alot and yes i do moan when i paid £300 to enter a freez and raise with queens and get call with 7/2 off and the nobby head hits full house on the flop over and out.

In a £1000 buy-in 'live game' at the weekend, on the final table, I moved all in with AKs and was called by a player holding 42os.

The fact that the flop came 422 is irrelevant, I want that call!


Red, looking at it with hindsight, I'm so glad you didn't have a big pair then... It would have been even more painful.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: totalise on June 14, 2006, 09:31:42 PM
i rest my case not only can they not play they talk out there 3rd eye as well.how long u been playing expert, i looked on poker pages i could'nt see you,or is it you do not play live  (you want to talk to me pm me) and stop boreing the site to death.and me

I know I said that ended my participation, but this response is slowly rising the level of bile in my stomach....

1) Why on earth would I play live when people like you are playing at the same table?

2) it would be impossible for me to make 1/4 of the money I make online playing live. This could be because live players are more nitty, or because I can only play 30 hands an hour. Either reason is plenty for me to stick to online

3) snoopy did a great article on the blonde poker front page about players like myself, we dont crave the attention.. being a known player is useless to me. Its absolutely the least important thing by a phenomenal margin. Poker is about money to me, and I make enough to be satisfied in life and not to cry about the ruination of poker.

4) you have repeatedly posted in a condescending tone. Why dont you try showing people some respect? lack of respect probably leads you to getting your stack in the middle in deep tournies with an overpair. Try it sometime

5) why on earth would I want to talk to you?


Red is an older member of the board, and look at his attitude to players like this. He wants them on the table making these "idiotic" plays. Its what makes him the most money. He knows how to exploit people doing this. He has made a lot of money from these people. Try it sometime, its a lot more fun then losing!








Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: byronkincaid on June 14, 2006, 09:42:46 PM
ZOMGWTF PWNED BY AN INTERNET NOBBY HEAD11111ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 15, 2006, 12:01:23 AM
nice one tom,i know you have fair results on line but you play a good live game, ace king is not a made hand is it so why do you want them in.a pair of 2s is in front is it not.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 15, 2006, 12:02:51 AM
totalised, shut up


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: AndyG on June 15, 2006, 12:10:47 AM
I feel guilty now as I started this thread.. my original point was that in my opinion the ga,e is suffering in so far as being a specticle when it becomes two card lottery


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: JungleCat03 on June 15, 2006, 12:21:05 AM
I don't get how you can complain about loose preflop calls and at the same time admire "high stakes poker" where players like Sammy Farha play a very effective loose aggressive style, calling raises with utter rubbish at times, confident he can outplay the other players, or hit a highly disguised big hand.

This is similar isn't it?

Totalise has always offered logical thought provoking analysis in his poker posts. I think you'd learn a lot from reading some of these.

I'm a winning online player but I'm not so proud that I can't admit that I've got a hell of a lot to learn about poker. The day I think I've learnt it all and tell other good players to shut up when they offer me advice is the day i'm sunk.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: VANDAM on June 15, 2006, 12:34:21 AM
this is my opinion and i agree with andy the game is never going to be how it was, £300 entry to a lottery


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Royal Flush on June 15, 2006, 01:32:21 AM
this is my opinion and i agree with andy the game is never going to be how it was, £300 entry to a lottery

Maybe you are just no good?


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Robert HM on June 15, 2006, 01:43:09 AM
Stop stirring JD  /:-|


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Royal Flush on June 15, 2006, 01:50:13 AM
Stop stirring JD  /:-|

Turns out thats why 99% of losing players lose......


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Jinky04 on June 15, 2006, 02:30:36 AM
If we all played the same I wouldn't want to play


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: marcro on June 15, 2006, 11:18:08 AM
I think the issue is we all know that people that who win with muppet plays are not going to win the tourney but it really hurts being part of the collateral damage as they create havoc.  Last night I had 1700 chips and raised 3 BB, 300 chips, with AA.  Board came 2, 4, 8.  I raised 500 and the villain went all in.  I was not going to fold with only 900 chips remaining so called.  He turned over 8 3 and a 3 came on the river to give him two pair and my scalp.  He then said he was lucky on the river but played it well to that point!  In a tourney today you have to face a lot of all in calls and since any 2 cards can win you need to get lucky to survive.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: ifm on June 15, 2006, 02:47:16 PM
I actually don't think these plays are that bad at times, if i have double the average i'll take a flop after a raise with suited cards or connected/close to being connected cards occasionally.
There is nothing wrong in that, a lot of players do it, the hand Tom describes was Ali Mallu, does anyone on here consider him a bad player??
I doubt it and against certain players it can be a good ploy because you can put them on a very tight range of hands.
I think you assume if someone does it they are complete fish who don't know what they are doing, not necessarily true.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: tikay on June 16, 2006, 01:13:49 AM

There was some dreadful "non-blonde" flaming in this thread, & I apologise, on behlf of blonde, to those who were on the wrong end of it, especially totalise.

Action has been taken against the flamer, which is real sad, as he's a long-time bud, but blonde ain't going down that road, it just ain't.

I Post this just in case anyone thinks it's OK to Post on blonde in such a manner. It is not. We could not really remove the offesive Posts, as they had been up too long, & the thread would have lost meaning, & Andy Gomm's thought-provoking Post woul have suffered, too.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: AndyG on June 16, 2006, 12:19:22 PM
Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Royal Flush on June 16, 2006, 12:45:30 PM
Well you see these TV headsup games. The thing to note is a deal was probably done, and also the made editing, a deal was done in Deauville and yet we still had a mamouth HU batte.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: tikay on June 16, 2006, 12:52:35 PM
Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

There was nothing whatsoever wrong with your Post Andy.

But one Member, for reasons I can't begin to fathom, went off on one, was extremely rude to other Posters, & we've had to take action against him. It's a great sadness to me, & to you, that he happens to be a mutual & long-time friend, with whom both you & I have spent mny happy hours. That's just the way things pan out.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: matt674 on June 16, 2006, 01:03:15 PM
Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

When you say you miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out who are you referring to and are you referring to specific tournaments that were shown on television?

Or is your post aimed more at the dawning reality that the poker boom has took off in such a fashion that poker will never go back to the "good old days" where only the worlds top 40-50 players would meet each year to play in the showpiece event of poker - the main event at the WSOP?

The advent of televised poker tournaments and the huge boom in poker means that every man and his dog (and monkey......) wants a piece of the action, they want their 15 minutes of fame. And so they take to the tables in the hope that they get lucky, occassionally they do and some even reach the dizzy heights of a Final Table TV apperance or one big payday. However when you say that you are having trouble convincing people that the game is no longer a game of skill, it now mainly luck then ask yourself how come at the end of the day the big name professional players always still seem to show a profit and come out on top in the long run.

Last years WSOP events did have their fair share of "unknown" players but then many of the final tables were still made up of recognized names - the Players of the Year top 10 was made up of professional players as during the course of the events they built up the points by consistently finishing in the money. Johnny Chan and Doyle Brunson both picked up their 10th bracelets.

Yes the EPT Final Tables have been mainly made up of "unknown" players - but then the tournaments are still in their infancy, most of the big name recognized players do not participate in them. As for the tournaments not appearing to last long on televison then that could be more to do with the television companys editing rather than the players not appearing to care and just lumping it in with any two cards - also as flushy says, if deals have been done then there isnt an awful lot to play for apart from pride and a trophy.

I understand the point you were trying to make in your original post and yes it is something that the professional player has had to come to terms with and adapt his/her game accordingly - but then if they are as good as they are supposed to be relying on the game for a living then they should have no trouble in still being able to continue to have a good future.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: AndyG on June 16, 2006, 03:48:25 PM
Ofcourse you are right in the  point you make and I like everyone else has to accept that the game has changed and change with it, I still play online all day everyday and still make a living from it and have been doing so for the last 6 years ( before any of the present sites had even been thought of lol ) I dont play enough live comps anymore even thos up until 2 years ago I used to play every festival going this is due to laziness more than anything else as online is far too easy and less travelling lol. I wasnt talking about any players particulary as being true exponants of the game I was making the point that in my opinion the game has changed for the worse in some respects, You mention the wsop and you are right in some aspects but wrong in others the last time I played the event was 3 years ago and there were just over 900 runners as always you started with 10,000 points and a slow clock, the last 2 years over 50% of the field has been gone at the end of day 1 that isnt a world series of poker its the world series of crapshoots. I cannot knock the online world because as I have stated I play everyday and have made very good money from it but I will never play the wsop again and whoever wins the event in future will never ever be able to say he was the best player in the world. Im in noway being bitchy here when I say I played vrs KAIKY aka Joe Hatcham everyday for approx 3yrs on the $25/$50 NL table on Ladbrokes and although he is an ok player he certainly isnt the best in the world and Im sure he would be the 1st to admit in order to win the wsop he had more than his fair share of luck and good luck to him.

I stand by my original point that I would be prepard to bet that before long sponsors will be putting on comps that are invitation only in order to eradicate the chances of getting final tables made up of people that the viewing public have no idea who the are and are very unlikely to ever see again, Any form of television sport can only thrive on recognisable personalities, Snooker not the same and doesnt get watched by nearly as many people post Steve davis, Jimmy white etc etc Darts has Phil Taylor but without him where would it be,


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Royal Flush on June 16, 2006, 03:54:55 PM
I agree with the way TV poker will go, it will be SuperStar invitationals. However there will always be coverage for things like WPT and the WSOP, although they would benefit more if in the WPT they showed play from not just the final. Personally i love watching the WSOP day1-3 coverage when the big names are all still in!


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: matt674 on June 16, 2006, 04:28:19 PM
You mention the wsop and you are right in some aspects but wrong in others the last time I played the event was 3 years ago and there were just over 900 runners as always you started with 10,000 points and a slow clock, the last 2 years over 50% of the field has been gone at the end of day 1 that isnt a world series of poker its the world series of crapshoots.

I played in last years and it was 10000 points and a slow clock. I've qualified for this years and i believe its still 10000 points and a slow clock. The only difference is that you now have to accumulate more chips to win the tournaments as there are so many more chips in play. Last years final table took so long because the chip stacks were too big compared to the size of the blinds and antes - If anything that means that the luck factor has been removed even further as it allows for more play and for the better players to outplay their lucky opponents. The final 4 tables had names such as Phil Ivey, Greg Raymer, Mike Matusow, John Juanda, Tim Phan, Shawn Sheikhan, Andrew Black, Minh Ly - all well known players on the poker circuit, not just 36 nobodys.

Personally i prefer to be playing poker rather than watching it - i too play mainly online because of the convenience and inability to take time off work to play in festival events even though i much prefer to play in a live tournament. However when it comes to watching poker i can take it or leave it whether it is full of star studded players or not, provided that the poker being played is of a good standard (you can take your celebrity poker and stick it where the sun dont shine!!  :D). You can learn just as much watching a table of nobodys than you can watching a table of big name stars, in fact for players who are just being introduced to the game it probably isnt a good idea to be watching the big name stars as they are not thinking on the same level as they are and therefore might not understand the complexities of why they make the moves they are making. The prime example being hundreds of "Gus Hansen wannabes" who see him raising and reraising with 2-7 o/s and think thats all they have to do to become successful at this game.........

If the television companies suddenly start producing and televising invitation only tournaments then i believe many people will lose interest in poker as its the lure of getting your 15 minutes of fame making a final table that allures many of them into playing in the first place. Unfortunately as we've discussed many times in other threads poker is different from all other sports as there is no way your average person would be able to compete with your Tiger Woods or your Phil Taylors day in day out but in poker they can - or at least try to anyway. And while these new people are bringing more money into the game in the hope that one day they can live the dream of being able to give up their office job in the hope of jetsetting around the world to play cards it means that for the good poker player there will be an endless supply of easy money available!! We dont want to be trying to drive them away by telling them "you have no hope of ever making it big in this game" we want to encourage them to join in even more :)

Who knows one day i might even get to give up my office job and join the ranks of the professional poker players like sponoy and tikay!!!  :D

<stands back and waits for several sarcastic comments to wing their way in my direction!! ;))


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: Josh on June 16, 2006, 04:32:51 PM
Moo.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: tikay on June 16, 2006, 04:43:27 PM

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: matt674 on June 16, 2006, 04:48:47 PM

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.

my little laughing smiley at the end was a tounge in cheek one at the fact that i'm making all these remarks and i'm still a player who dreams of becoming a professional - it wasnt aimed at the fact i used yours and sponoys name in vain (for a change ;)) hence my parting comment!!


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: tikay on June 16, 2006, 04:50:37 PM

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.

my little laughing smiley at the end was a tounge in cheek one at the fact that i'm making all these remarks and i'm still a player who dreams of becoming a professional - it wasnt aimed at the fact i used yours and sponoys name in vain (for a change ;)) hence my parting comment!!

Dreams of being a Pro - you & me too, buddy, you & me too.


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: matt674 on June 16, 2006, 04:54:01 PM
Ok, my apologies i should have used a phrase more akin to "of giving up my mundane office job and relying on all aspects of poker to earn a living - a game i enjoy to play" rather than "turning professional".


Title: Re: Where has the beautiful game gone ?
Post by: snoopy1239 on June 16, 2006, 05:15:52 PM
Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

Mads Anderson versus Edgar Skjervold in the Scandinavian Open in Copenhagen should be worth a watch. Two class players who provided us with over an hour's worth of top notch heads up action.