Where has the beautiful game gone ?

[ifm]

I actually don't think these plays are that bad at times, if i have double the average i'll take a flop after a raise with suited cards or connected/close to being connected cards occasionally.
There is nothing wrong in that, a lot of players do it, the hand Tom describes was Ali Mallu, does anyone on here consider him a bad player??
I doubt it and against certain players it can be a good ploy because you can put them on a very tight range of hands.
I think you assume if someone does it they are complete fish who don't know what they are doing, not necessarily true.

[tikay]

There was some dreadful "non-blonde" flaming in this thread, & I apologise, on behlf of blonde, to those who were on the wrong end of it, especially totalise.

Action has been taken against the flamer, which is real sad, as he's a long-time bud, but blonde ain't going down that road, it just ain't.

I Post this just in case anyone thinks it's OK to Post on blonde in such a manner. It is not. We could not really remove the offesive Posts, as they had been up too long, & the thread would have lost meaning, & Andy Gomm's thought-provoking Post woul have suffered, too.

[AndyG]

Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

[Royal Flush]

Well you see these TV headsup games. The thing to note is a deal was probably done, and also the made editing, a deal was done in Deauville and yet we still had a mamouth HU batte.

[tikay]

Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

There was nothing whatsoever wrong with your Post Andy.

But one Member, for reasons I can't begin to fathom, went off on one, was extremely rude to other Posters, & we've had to take action against him. It's a great sadness to me, & to you, that he happens to be a mutual & long-time friend, with whom both you & I have spent mny happy hours. That's just the way things pan out.

[matt674]

Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

When you say you miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out who are you referring to and are you referring to specific tournaments that were shown on television?

Or is your post aimed more at the dawning reality that the poker boom has took off in such a fashion that poker will never go back to the "good old days" where only the worlds top 40-50 players would meet each year to play in the showpiece event of poker - the main event at the WSOP?

The advent of televised poker tournaments and the huge boom in poker means that every man and his dog (and monkey......) wants a piece of the action, they want their 15 minutes of fame. And so they take to the tables in the hope that they get lucky, occassionally they do and some even reach the dizzy heights of a Final Table TV apperance or one big payday. However when you say that you are having trouble convincing people that the game is no longer a game of skill, it now mainly luck then ask yourself how come at the end of the day the big name professional players always still seem to show a profit and come out on top in the long run.

Last years WSOP events did have their fair share of "unknown" players but then many of the final tables were still made up of recognized names - the Players of the Year top 10 was made up of professional players as during the course of the events they built up the points by consistently finishing in the money. Johnny Chan and Doyle Brunson both picked up their 10th bracelets.

Yes the EPT Final Tables have been mainly made up of "unknown" players - but then the tournaments are still in their infancy, most of the big name recognized players do not participate in them. As for the tournaments not appearing to last long on televison then that could be more to do with the television companys editing rather than the players not appearing to care and just lumping it in with any two cards - also as flushy says, if deals have been done then there isnt an awful lot to play for apart from pride and a trophy.

I understand the point you were trying to make in your original post and yes it is something that the professional player has had to come to terms with and adapt his/her game accordingly - but then if they are as good as they are supposed to be relying on the game for a living then they should have no trouble in still being able to continue to have a good future.

[AndyG]

Ofcourse you are right in the  point you make and I like everyone else has to accept that the game has changed and change with it, I still play online all day everyday and still make a living from it and have been doing so for the last 6 years ( before any of the present sites had even been thought of lol ) I dont play enough live comps anymore even thos up until 2 years ago I used to play every festival going this is due to laziness more than anything else as online is far too easy and less travelling lol. I wasnt talking about any players particulary as being true exponants of the game I was making the point that in my opinion the game has changed for the worse in some respects, You mention the wsop and you are right in some aspects but wrong in others the last time I played the event was 3 years ago and there were just over 900 runners as always you started with 10,000 points and a slow clock, the last 2 years over 50% of the field has been gone at the end of day 1 that isnt a world series of poker its the world series of crapshoots. I cannot knock the online world because as I have stated I play everyday and have made very good money from it but I will never play the wsop again and whoever wins the event in future will never ever be able to say he was the best player in the world. Im in noway being bitchy here when I say I played vrs KAIKY aka Joe Hatcham everyday for approx 3yrs on the $25/$50 NL table on Ladbrokes and although he is an ok player he certainly isnt the best in the world and Im sure he would be the 1st to admit in order to win the wsop he had more than his fair share of luck and good luck to him.

I stand by my original point that I would be prepard to bet that before long sponsors will be putting on comps that are invitation only in order to eradicate the chances of getting final tables made up of people that the viewing public have no idea who the are and are very unlikely to ever see again, Any form of television sport can only thrive on recognisable personalities, Snooker not the same and doesnt get watched by nearly as many people post Steve davis, Jimmy white etc etc Darts has Phil Taylor but without him where would it be,

[Royal Flush]

I agree with the way TV poker will go, it will be SuperStar invitationals. However there will always be coverage for things like WPT and the WSOP, although they would benefit more if in the WPT they showed play from not just the final. Personally i love watching the WSOP day1-3 coverage when the big names are all still in!

[matt674]

You mention the wsop and you are right in some aspects but wrong in others the last time I played the event was 3 years ago and there were just over 900 runners as always you started with 10,000 points and a slow clock, the last 2 years over 50% of the field has been gone at the end of day 1 that isnt a world series of poker its the world series of crapshoots.

I played in last years and it was 10000 points and a slow clock. I've qualified for this years and i believe its still 10000 points and a slow clock. The only difference is that you now have to accumulate more chips to win the tournaments as there are so many more chips in play. Last years final table took so long because the chip stacks were too big compared to the size of the blinds and antes - If anything that means that the luck factor has been removed even further as it allows for more play and for the better players to outplay their lucky opponents. The final 4 tables had names such as Phil Ivey, Greg Raymer, Mike Matusow, John Juanda, Tim Phan, Shawn Sheikhan, Andrew Black, Minh Ly - all well known players on the poker circuit, not just 36 nobodys.

Personally i prefer to be playing poker rather than watching it - i too play mainly online because of the convenience and inability to take time off work to play in festival events even though i much prefer to play in a live tournament. However when it comes to watching poker i can take it or leave it whether it is full of star studded players or not, provided that the poker being played is of a good standard (you can take your celebrity poker and stick it where the sun dont shine!!  ). You can learn just as much watching a table of nobodys than you can watching a table of big name stars, in fact for players who are just being introduced to the game it probably isnt a good idea to be watching the big name stars as they are not thinking on the same level as they are and therefore might not understand the complexities of why they make the moves they are making. The prime example being hundreds of "Gus Hansen wannabes" who see him raising and reraising with 2-7 o/s and think thats all they have to do to become successful at this game.........

If the television companies suddenly start producing and televising invitation only tournaments then i believe many people will lose interest in poker as its the lure of getting your 15 minutes of fame making a final table that allures many of them into playing in the first place. Unfortunately as we've discussed many times in other threads poker is different from all other sports as there is no way your average person would be able to compete with your Tiger Woods or your Phil Taylors day in day out but in poker they can - or at least try to anyway. And while these new people are bringing more money into the game in the hope that one day they can live the dream of being able to give up their office job in the hope of jetsetting around the world to play cards it means that for the good poker player there will be an endless supply of easy money available!! We dont want to be trying to drive them away by telling them "you have no hope of ever making it big in this game" we want to encourage them to join in even more

Who knows one day i might even get to give up my office job and join the ranks of the professional poker players like sponoy and tikay!!! 

<stands back and waits for several sarcastic comments to wing their way in my direction!! )

[Josh]

Moo.

[tikay]

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.

[matt674]

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.

my little laughing smiley at the end was a tounge in cheek one at the fact that i'm making all these remarks and i'm still a player who dreams of becoming a professional - it wasnt aimed at the fact i used yours and sponoys name in vain (for a change ) hence my parting comment!!

[tikay]

Behave Matt, you cheeky monkey.

my little laughing smiley at the end was a tounge in cheek one at the fact that i'm making all these remarks and i'm still a player who dreams of becoming a professional - it wasnt aimed at the fact i used yours and sponoys name in vain (for a change ) hence my parting comment!!

Dreams of being a Pro - you & me too, buddy, you & me too.

[matt674]

Ok, my apologies i should have used a phrase more akin to "of giving up my mundane office job and relying on all aspects of poker to earn a living - a game i enjoy to play" rather than "turning professional".

[snoopy1239]

Blimey I didnt mean to start a row people !! and yes there is nothing wrong with seeing a flop with connecting cards anyone who knows me will tell you that I see flops with all kinds of hands the play Im talking about are the loons that just keep pushing in and calling raises with crap without thinking if the raiser has enough chips to lay the hand down if he misses, all I meant that as a viewer the game has for sure lost some of its art at times, talking about bad beats etc is missing my point or maybe Im alone in my opinion but I really miss watching true exponants of the game duelling it out playing flops and outplaying eachother without just all in all in all in with crap and trusting to luck, I have spent years trying to convince non playing friends and family that poker is a game of skill and luck but by far more luck but now I have no argument at times as it is mostly luck thats all. The last few EPT's I have watched the last two players have been heads up for very few hands even tho they both had plenty of chips and the final hands were hardly quality hands its just sod it lets get em in and see what happens and I think its a shame after 2/3 days of play to get there it comes down to fate. Once again I apologise if my thoughts started any rows it certainly wasnt intended

Mads Anderson versus Edgar Skjervold in the Scandinavian Open in Copenhagen should be worth a watch. Two class players who provided us with over an hour's worth of top notch heads up action.