blonde poker forum

Today, I got approached by an old Lady while walking past Borders.   She was collecting for the Christian aid.

She gave me a leaflet and asked me to have a quick read at it.  It said " How to recycle a goat".  Basically all the money she was helping raise for the Christian Aid was going to be used to buy a goat for starving people in Africa.

Here is what the leaflet said .

 ( This is what buying a goat will do to help a child in Africa )

1. Give an orphaned child a goat

2. The goat produces manure

3. The child grows more crops to eat and sell

4. The Child doesn't go hungry

5. The goat produces more goats

6. The Child sells a goat to pay for school

7. The Child keeps a goat

8. The child gives back a goat


The old Lady asked that I donate as little as 50p.  She gave me all the obvious reasons why my donation was vital if steps were to be taken to help address poverty in Africa.

Like everyone else, I feel terrible when I hear of people starving in Africa and other Developing Nations across the World. However I also care for animals.  I asked if my donation would go to anything other than buying a goat.  Her answer was that the aim of the Christian aid in this particular campaign was to provide what the leaflet suggested. A goat for people who had nothing.

I knocked her back and tried to explain my main concern was for the welfare of the animal.  She could not give me a concrete promise the goats would be cared for in an appropriate way.  Once the goat was bought, it is down to the owner to care for it, no vets keep an eye on the animal as this is to expensive.

Is it fair to subject a goat to the horrors of a Continent that struggles to feed themselves?.  I believe the answer is, No.  I don't know if my view is correct or wrong, but it was my choice and I will stick to it. 

goat curry     mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think you can insist on having complete visibility of where your 50p has gone, if there is no guarantee you have to think seriously about your 50p. as far as the manure issue, load of sh*t in my opinion.

Sark, if you go onto the Christian Aid or oxfam websites there are other things available (a new well, sanitary toilets etc).

But, in the end the people in these areas need something to eat. Especially in places where the land is eroded/inhospitable, the goat is ideal, able to thrive off vegetation that sheep/cattle would starve on. The manure from the goats can help improve the soil quality, making food crops more viable, and of course goats breed, providing more goats & milk.

In the end these appeals are helping people to help themselves, and when they give a goat back, to help others as they've been helped.

As for the treatment of the goats, and the avaiability of vets, well I think the availability of doctors is more important, and I doubt that if the goats are what the people directly live off, that they will not care for them.

load of sh.t   :D    Funny Dewi


It wasn't the 50p I was concerned about.  The thought of my money paying for an animal to be subjected to misery is not something I will do.  I remember on Blue Peter back in the 90's, there was a similar campaign to buy  Donkeys for Developing Nations.  I thought at the time  " Why, so they can be worked to death by a person who has no time to care for them properly ?".   I am just not convinced that the animals welfare will be the main priority.  I am not saying this is without reason, the people in these countries don't have the education or resources to do this. It is not their fault. Unfortunately this is the case in my opinion. So I won't contribute to this sort of charity

Please think of the children!  ... why am I reminded of the south park movie with bin laden and the afgani kids who send them a goat :)

What happens when I click on Mikky's phone?   I just clicked on it by mistake.   

Thats a very awkward moral dilemma Sark, but you touched on another issue that troubles me too - how much in the £ of donations actually goes to the good cause.

Oxfam & the like always tell you how much in the £ goes to "the cause", & how much for administrative costs. It costs a fortune to run charities, and those that run them have my absolute respct, so I have no problem with my £1 being diluted by admin & overhead costs - but I do want to know how much feeds through to the actual cause, always.

the main thing I have a problem with are the "professional beggars" who are out in city centre everyday..collecting money for charities. Those guys get aroun 8£ an hour...and seeing as there are ussually 4 or 6 of them that's atleast 32£ an hour spent...Add on top of that the overhead of the admin side of doing a charity, I can pretty much guarantee you they are losing money on them little begging excursions...

bah to the lot of em.

I give money to charities but only to those who keep a nice low profile and just spent what little money they have on taking care of what they are promising to take care off.

I'm not overly fussed about how much an hour they spend to collect the cash - they know their "business" & would not waste money, one assumes.

But it's how much in the £ that feeds through which is the key stat.

I once made a donation to the NSPCC in response to an appeal. The upshot was, they rang me and wrote to me at least once a week asking for more. In the end it must haver cost them more than I donated in phone calls and letters, every one made me feel horrible.

There must be a better way.

instant ban

 ;iagree;

Can vouch that this works first hand having lived in a village called Ta'if in Saudi Arabia for five years, all the households had a herd of goats that they would use for fuel and milk. The village was up in the mountains where the landscape was either rock or desert, there was no way sheep could ever have survived there. Once a week the head of the household would take them for a walk around the rocky areas and they would munch away on anything they could find (including household rubbish!). There were no vets but the goats seemed well enough looked after - but then they had to be as they provided the households with so much. Yes they became ill and there weren't any vets but then usually the goat was slaughtered and eaten, they had enough to be able to breed replacements anyway.

Five years - and i still never got used to having goats milk on my fruitloops!!

Why were you staying in Ta'if in Saudi Arabia, matt?    Can you speak Arabic? 

My dad used to work out there as a poultry farmer. He was the manager of the farm that was the sole supplier of eggs to the majority of Saudi Arabia meaning i used to have 1,500,000 chickens as pets.

Can you remember all their names?

You used goats for fuel?

Sark, the phone means that the poster is posting via a mobile device (not laptop unless its going via a wap gateway). my net is down for the foreseeable future :(

Cheers mikky,   I have been worried about that  :D.    When I see buttons on the screen, I have an irresistible need to press them.   I thought perhaps, I have opened a release gate for a Venezuelan dam and flooded a village.  But now that you explain it, it is obvious.  Thanks.

Quite simple really, if you want to give to charity and know where it's going then give it to a beggar on the street.
There a lot of charities that take huge amounts and simply don't show where it went.

I can see the dilemma you are in.

Will the starving people look after the goat properly ?

No let em starve.  ;goodvevil;

if nmy kebab taste gud who gives a fuk i c wot ur sayin!

I'll regret this int morni'n

Who gives a f**k about a goat,  are you for real?

Firstly if an old dear asked me for 50p in the street I'd give it to her on principal irrespective of what it was for(it would be a bit more that 50p)

secondly thats one of the most morally reprehensible contentions pertaining to African relief aid Ive ever read.

theres just so many things wrong with what you said its unreal.

being a reasonably benevolent person you would have been eager, i imagine to support the cause had it not involved a goat, then what was your conclusive proof that the goat would have been subjected to mistreatment that compelled you to refuse a donation, if theres only a vague sense foreboading with no discernable evidence supporting your concerns the moral thing to do is to give the donation and believe that the reputable charity charged with running the campain were doing so in a way non detrimental to the health of the goats.

I really couldn't care less if the goat was stuffed into a box and died a slow and painful death if it somehow contributed to the sustainment of a human life.

Not only do you seemingly put the potential well being of a goat above that of a human life, which is what your post is tantamount too, but you nit pick with an old lady over 50p!!!!!

can you imagine being outside trying to collect donations of 50p and someone like you comes along proffessing philanthropic tendencies but ear rolling her and ultimately declining to make a donation because of the well being of a goat!!!!

Of course it will be mistreated, these people cant even afford to eat, cure themselfs, LIVE!!! ,so of course the goat wont have a five star life with three meals a day and massages because its the drought ridden Africa!!!!!!! but who cares its there to serve a purpose.

You were asking about whats happend to the country the other day, well I'll tell you its posts like this and people who agree with them that make me despair, absolutely unreal that the most criticism you received was from rod which was a well worded rebuttel outlining the practicalities of the situation but not highlighting the unbelievable lack of forsight, insight, compassion , and decorum from you.

I agree with you 100%, I too wrote a post to reply, absolutely outraged at a goat over a human life. It also made me remember a post about a homeless person that kicked a dog, and how he was about to punch this person on behalf of the dog, it seems that human misery takes second place to animals.

After reading my post back several times I then decided not to post it. 1 it might come across as a personal attack

And 2 who am I to tell someone they are right or wrong in their thinking, after reading your post I again see it makes my blood boil, There is NOTHING worst than seeing a child suffer. Nothing..

Hate me, Flame me, Ban me,  I should have spoke out when I first read it.

I would have thought that the vast majority of goats in this world are wild beast that roam mountains etc.

They get on ok without vets.

Gotta love that post!!

It is personal choice, Bolt.   I couldn't give a toss what you believe mate.  :D     I have my views and you have your views.  Bundle,  the guy who kicked the dog was drunk and kicked the dog because he was clearly a bad bugger. 

I do value human life.  However I also value animal life.  I am a member of PETA and have read many news letters related to these sorts of things.  As a result, I wasn't convinced that the animal would be kept in suitable living conditions.  In the wild it is different, they are not housed in tiny pens and fed minimal amounts to survive from.  In the mountains if a goat dies through lack of food, etc.  That is the sad reality of nature. There is nothing we can do about it.  On this occasion there is, don't give the 50p or whatever is needed.  I would rather hand 50p to a homeless person in Glasgow.  At least I know, I have made a difference to that persons life and not damaged another living creatures life.

I am all for charity.  But I don't agree with this charity campaign.

Obviously you think I waffle p.sh  :D  ( you are not the first ) .  But to be honest, after I read your post, I thought exactly the same about you. 

Have a nice day  :)

dont ya just love a good debate?
I am also a member of PETA but i think on this occassion i would have given the 50p. I give a donation to PETA every month and to be honest i dont know how much of it actually goes to help animals and what percentage goes to line someone pocket before the rest goes to charity.
the whole goat cruelty thing in my opinion is an issue but i i dont think that folk are automatically going to be cruel to the animal. thats making an assumption about a whole country/village. goats are hardly animals and im sure folk would want to treat them well so they could have continued milk for the kids and manure for the soil. a live goat is better a dead one and helps people farm. kindness cannot be guarenteed though as it cannot be guarenteed in this country. just look at the way some people treat racehorses, dogss, cats etc. this is about bad ass individuals and not whole villages or countries.
all charities should be declaring where ALL the money goes at the outset. anyone here work for a charity who wants to reveal some funds secrets? anyone ever nicked anything out of a charity box they were collecting for? come on, tell the truth..........................................................


mad (not brad i forgot to log him out)

Guys, disagree & argue all you like, but do NOT Flame Members please.

i was only kidding about scamming charities tikay. didnt really think anyone would name and shame  ;goodvevil;

Hi Mad,

I was not referring to your Post - your Post did not flame anyone.

It IS a subject that, whenever it's aired - Humans v Animals - certainly inflames passions. But the way to get a point across does not have to include personal remarks or insults. A well-argued, good-natured coherent debate will do the job much better.

 ;iagree;


Sorry tikay.  I should have just replied by saying  " PM me " rather than openly defending my view.  My mistake. 

Thanks Sark, but this is the problem.....once one member gets rude with another, we have to aliow the one who's been attacked to defend himself. This can escalate & get out of hand. Not easy to be fair, & right, to everyone.

But we will keep this place civil, at all costs.

Otherwise if you dont keep it civil then the monkey militia will invade and take over blonde - and do you all want to be ruled by a bunch of primates??

When I was reading through this I though oops Sark's done it again  :D  But I thought the post from Bolt was a shocker.  Its clear from many of Sarks post that he cares greatly for animals and the enviroment I belive therefore that if he has any misgivings about the treatment of any animal then he is right to decline to give to any charity.

I can understand the thought process about how the goat makes lives much better for children and villages in 3rd world countries, however while there is corruption and mis-management from governments and gueriila groups and not to mention strangleholds from developed countries on these regions then the people will never prosper.  It is for this very reason that I would not give to a charity collecting for third world countries.  We have been giving money to these countries for years but nothing ever seems to change, and as Red Dog pointed out you give once and they keep wanting you to give.

Sark,

If the goat was the family's livelihood wouldn't it be in their best interests to keep it healthy? Makes sense to me.

I do not agree with the way Bolt posted his view but I must admit I do agree with what he's trying to say.

If I was Starvin Marvin and I had kids who were also starving and I coulda had a goat to help me in life and feed my kids I'd be happy. However if I found out that a comparitively rich person from the Western World stopped me having this opportunity becuase I MIGHT mistreat my own goat I'd be very disappointed. In fact I'd be devestated.

;iagree;

I don't have a problem with the "Give a Goat" campaign.  The human race has always used animals for food and work and is simply part and parcel of our existence.  In poorer parts of the world the milk and meat such an animal can provide will keep those families alive.  There are better targets than this for those concerned for animal welfare.


Reading this comment however made me sick.  The idea that the needs of the human race should override any concerns about animals shows we are not really that evolved after all.  Yesterday on Central news we were treated to the spectacle of 4 teenagers throwing of a Cat off the 10th floor of a tower block, running downstairs to bring it back up and repeating the process 4 TIMES !!  All while filming the entertainment on a mobile phone.  Anybody feel their needs overrides that of an animal ?  Or even a cockroach ?

Then I chanced on this gem of a reply


I am assuming the human misery in this case was the injury the homeless guy sustained to his foot while kicking his dog.

Every time I look at the news and see the evil the human race is capable of I grow more and more convinced that the human race is a plague upon the Earth which will eventually destroy it.  That which makes us "Better" than animals is less obvious these days.

Excellent

I will stick to my views  :D.   I agree with everything I have said about the matter.   Thank you


No, of course I am kidding.   Everyone has their own opinions and that is great.  I have no problem with bolt, if he wants to say whatever he feels to me, then that is no problem.  I will just ignore what he has to say  :D.   Only joking.   I am not suggesting my view is correct, but it is my view and it will stay like that.  It is clear that everyone has vastly different opinions about the matter, bolt may be correct, who can tell. 

I don't want to argue.  My main concern now is for England and my wish that they win against Portugal today 

me three

Every time you donate 50p an African kills his goat. Please, think of the goats.

That's the thing with issues like this, there is no 'correct' answer, but we will all have very differing opinions - that's what makes us who we are.  I know you are an animal lover Sark (as are many others on here), and so of course the welfare of the goat was the first thing you questioned.

I, personally, am not an animal lover (sorry, just the way I am!), so I wouldn't have given the goat's welfare a second thought.

Neither of us is right or wrong, we just look at things from a different perspective, and find our common ground in the world of poker!

Exactly Claire, I agree.  Unfortunately you always win at poker when we have played  :D.   No, being serious.  That was a good post and I agree with it. 

i agree

mad

I love animals too, but the example you give isn't relevant at all. Bolt was saying that he would gladly sacrifice the life of an animal to save a human life. Different situation to a bunch of kids torturing a cat for amusement. (I recall the cat survived its mistreatment too - big up to da felines)

Do I feel my needs override that of a cockroach? Er, Yes. If Jack Bauer has captured me and a cockroach and is convinced one of us is a terrorist, better beleive Im sticking a long beard and "osama bin-roach" name tag on the cockroach. No way I'm taking a bullet for him.


One thing that makes us "better" than animals is whilst we may mistreat some animals, I don't recall the last time a pride of lions held a fierce debate before mauling a wilderbeest. Calling us a plague on the earth is a bit OTT and  is ironic seeing as the bacteria that contribute to plagues are also living organisms and surely fall under the all-emcompassing spectrum of the idyllic, utopian guardianship of life that you crave.

If I seem harsh, it may be because we've jsut lost on penalties AGAIN.

Good debate.

erm..  No.  This is what Bolt actually said..


That is not the same as saying sacrificing the life of an animal is ok to save a human life (which it is).  As regards the "Happy Slapping" Cat.  No.  It died.  Cats may have nine lives but getting chucked off the tenth floor of a tower block four times is a bit much to survive.  I am assuming they didn't want to try it a fifth time beacuse the Cat was unable to move at this stage and it wasn't worth the bother, as if the Cat was no longer moving it wouldnt make much of a film.


I am no philosopher but I believe our capacity for compassion, feeling for the needs of others, and mercy makes us different to animals who do not have a sense of self awareness other than instinct.  The Lions you describe were having their lunch.  I am not a Lion but I imagine they look at the animals they kill as fast food.  They kill to eat and have not comprehension of the suffering their prey.  The example I gave was of extreme cruelty to an animal but there are worse examples involving cruelty to childern, other people etc..

As regards the "Plague" comment.  I am not an idealist, eco warrior, or green in any way but what positive contribution do you think the human race has made to the planet ?

"Do I feel my needs override that of a cockroach? Er, Yes. If Jack Bauer has captured me and a cockroach and is convinced one of us is a terrorist, better beleive Im sticking a long beard and "osama bin-roach" name tag on the cockroach. No way I'm taking a bullet for him."

Spot on.

Would I sacrifice a goat for an African family? Yes. Without question.

Without wanting to get into a pernickety semantic debate, if you don't sustain something, it dies/ ceases to be. So essentially he is saying he would gladly sacrifice the life of an animal (possibly involving suffering for the animal) if that resulted in saving/sustaining a human life. That's pretty much what i said!

I was going off memory on whether the cat survived or not. The BBC report couldn't confirm whether the cat survived but I doubt very much whether a cat thrown less than 10 times off a building would die. It's kind of incidental and irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that most people, particularly myself for obvious reasons, would find their behaviour utterly reprehensible and deserving of harsh punishment.

However, if by some bizarre set of circumstances, throwing a cat multiple times off a bulding was the only way to save a human life, I'd be fine with this, despite the fact i would hate seeing a cat suffer. I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where this would be the case.....possibly a bomb is about to go off on the floor below....you can see the large trigger which needs to be pressed to deactivate the bomb in the next 10 seconds.....you have a baseball pitcher's arm....... and you happen to have a cat in your hand....attached to your hand with a bungee rope....and you miss the first three times??? A tad contrived I guess. 

What positive contribution has humanity made to the planet? Hmmmm, this is a very profound question. I would think a hundred people would give you a hundred different responses. Off the top of my head, I'll go for literature, language, art, technology, the simpsons, tuff-fish's bad beat videos, 24, bacon sandwiches, origami, eva longoria, football (not penalty kicks), the red hot chili peppers, blondepoker forum, guitars, alcohol, deodorant.

I'm sure i've left one or two things out.

thats exactly what i was saying jungle cat but it seems as though that particular sentance is being purpousfully misinterpreted with the intention of using it as a platform on which to deviate this thread onto matters of a more ecological nature.

In actuality i'm an animal lover that cares greatly for the well being of the animal kingdom in its entirety.

I do, however, stand by everything i said.

The cat story was only on the news yesterday, after the 4th drop, the cat was found crying in agony in an alley with horrendous internal injuries and severe brain damage. It later died.

When I watched this story, I felt physically sick, the 18 year old neandothal with his impressed groupies were the lowest of the low in my opinion and if someone had put the moron who instigated this barbaric action in front of me, i would have killed him right there, i was livid to say the very least. I am not a violent person, but people of this sort will never be decent human beings and the less time they spend on this earth and their subsequent inabilty to reproduce more scumbags the better. For anyone who didn't see this, he actually held the cat out over the balcony by the neck and then dropped it 10 floors. This was repeated a further 3 times. Can you imagine going back down to pick the cat up and repeating it with the cat squealing in agony?

I sorely wished to get hold of that scumbag and hang him over the balcony and instill the fright into him, which he inflicted into the cat. Until people like him can be neutralised instantly, this world will continue to get worse and worse and eventually disappear up its own arse.

As for Africa and many of the others in poverty, until the world addresses the real issue and stops using this bullshit propaganda of "starving" and "no clean water" to make us feel guilty, poverty will be around forever and as such is a battle that can never be won. Corrupt governments are the problem and families who continue to reproduce children even though their last 3 have died from malnutrition. Contraception and eradication of corrupt governments are the key, however this is always misrepresented as pictures of starving kids are considered far more valuable as a fund raiser.

AIDS in Africa is something so much focus and money is spent on. I'm sure i read that 5 million (sounds alot i know) people in Africa die from AIDS each year and they are trying to stop this happening. Can you imagine if AIDS in Africa was eradicated, we'd have 5 million more people desperate for basic food and drink.

Nature and evolution control this earth not us, without either of them the human race is finished. We think we are the rulers of this earth and can just walk over or destroy whatever we want. As the saying reads "never bite the hand that feeds you".

Too much shit has gone on for far too long, the world needs to "cut the crap" and get on with solving the real issues.

good post

yes unless you sustain something it dies and the most profound thing about your post is what you think humans have done for this planet.  how does football, the simsons or literature sustain the planet? you've lost me.
If humans gave up polluting the planet that would be a start but we are so greedy and self centred that most of us cant see the most important reality. LIFE! We are the scurge of the planet and the fact that there are kids out there who would toss a cat off a 10 story flat really worries me. i dont think i know anyone who would do that. well i hope not.
I think that the human race will wipe itself out and take every other species with it. we appear to have a desire to conquer what sustains us. we have a whole lot of learning to do and we are really just infants on this earth. we are more interested in what star is sleeping with who. our focus needs to change or we are doomed. we need to know that the earths lungs are healthy and we need to start practising preventative strategies to make sure the old lady is fit for purpose in another million years.


mad

Junglecat wins the prize for most bizarre post. Bungie jumping cats and big red buttons!?

it matters not what lives or dies but how it played the game... Im happy to sacrifice the goat. But not to tourture it for entertainment.

When did blonde become an outlet for extremists?

are you saying that kids in Africa are not starving but have fundraising potential? i think we can safely assume that people are starving. the part you say about contraception has lots of cultural issues attached. this was on a previous post so i wont comment on that part.
the 5 million people with HIV have so much money spent on them. thats the biggest bunch of bull Ive heard this side of Christmas. the problem the Africans have (apart from prevention) is that the big pharmaceutical companies have a monopoly on HIV  drugs which cost an absolute fortune. Africans are dying needlessly because we have the drugs but they don't have the money to buy them. i may be wrong but i think you are saying this is OK because they would starve anyway? well thats how it reads to me. if this is what you mean, I'm really dissappointed. its an absolute disgrace and I'm ashamed at times to live in a western 'civilised' society. say we took socialist principles and shared all the material riches in the world with Africa and they shared their natural resources with us. we would not have these huge problems on the planet. but people are so greedy and they want to keep what they have as it gives them power and that power buys them more choices in life.
looks like I'm going to have a bad start to my day :(   good debate though but it rings home to me that changing the planet is a near to impossible task, even when you look at the different opinions on here for starters. scary!!

sometimes i really wonder if your at the wined-up!

what the hell is this thread all about lol

dave

in a nutshell the debate started looking at animals, humans and morality. althouugh the subject has been explored in more depth, we are still debating the same issue

mad :)

ps no wine for me. its too strong for this time of the morning. ill stick to fruit juice :)

TBH Mad i didnt read any of the thread just the initial post, and burst out laughing, Sark must be a wined / whined / whwywhnned (sp?) up merchant

dave

sark does like to start a good debate. this one got me fired up this morning or maybe thats athe caffine kicking in !!


mad

lol

no, dont be daft, i wasnt having a go or anything, at you or anyone, just think Sarky pants here, has a hidden story to his well fired debates.

I have nothing but love and respect for all of you's xx  ;)

no didnt think you were having a go. are you on the vino this morning?

  What hidden story is that Dave?    :D   


Do you play as ScotDave82  on VC? 

the hidden story is that you only have 1 pair of (illegal) union jack boxers and that you never take them off..................lmao

 :D     Don't you think the UJ is a great looking flag?   It is my favorite world flag by a mile  :)

hi sark

no I'm afraid its my least favourite and its a shame its been associated with right wing extremism. maybe thats why i dont like it? i like my own national flag better :)

The St. Andrew's cross is good, I agree.  When I used to be into cycling racing, I always had a Scottish flag on my seat post. It was always a reminder of my desire to impress my nation. Although I never got to that level due to my general crapness at cycling  :D. 

But now in poker, my avatar is a Union Jack.  Although on VC, I have switched to a European flag to prevent people trying to chat to me when playing.  I keep a small European phrase book by my laptop, when I win a pot or get outfished - I type something into the chat box in a European language.  That keeps them guessing where I am from. 

Je Voudrais deux billets = I would like two tickets 

If I type a random insane phrase every so often, my opponents think to themselves  " this guy is a complete nutter ".  They chat amongst themselves and take their focus off the game.  I asked how I made an international call from Germany last night.  Tonight's game will focus on the culinary delights of Spain.

no, just the couch kid

lol see what i mean lol

Sarky pants, no ive never played VC what network is it?

i play Crypto (betfair ) to be precise, occasional Blonde for the Blonde tourneys and occasionally Blue square for the Grosvner Sats.

I play betfair as well.  It is a nice site

What do you play on betfair?

i play MTT's mainly usually £10-£50 buy ins, the GTD tourney's mostly.

Just ring games.  I have been planning on starting to do a few HU games on their soon.  It is the only site where I get rakeback.  I play at 4 sites,  VC, BLONDE, PokerStars and Befair . 

Perhaps the campaign is unsympthetically worded.

"Recycle a goat"

Recycle, to me has connotations of rubbish, tin cans and old newspapers etc. ie, things we throw away and discard.
Obviously these images in juxtawuxta with animals, there is cause for concern.

Perhaps the word recycle means this to the animal lobbyists of this world too. If the campaign had used different language, maybe theyd have been more keen to give 50p?

I think the goat will be just fine.

Not at all, i felt i made it quite clear that showing starving kids on the tv hits home far better than showing the political reasons (which is the real reason). In other words, if all fundraising was labelled "corrupt government appeal" instead of "starving kids", then the amounts raised would be far less. Seeing a starving kid is far more powerful and emotive than politically explaining how corrupt these governments are and then subsequently trying to get people to donate.


I don't see anything you have said which doesn't come under the "corrupt government" label, which is my main point here. My point on the AIDS fact was that by curing AIDS in Africa, it will only bring up a far worse problem, in that millions more people will be starving and the endless pursuit to feed people in Africa will continue and worsen. Band Aid started some 20/30 years ago and in my eyes has done very little to eradicate the problem. This is not to disrespect the people who have given generously and the people who work tirelessly trying to forge a better life for those less fortunate than them. The fact remains, i am still seeing the same kids starving and the same country in trouble - what has actually improved over the past 20/30 years? It's important to look at the issue as a whole, true there will be running water in places where there wasn't before and some people will live longer, more quality lives, however on the whole the situation is still dire and seems almost impossible to ever solve, unless we attack the real problem - the corrupt governments.


The world is littered with charities, many of whom do work far beyond what most of us would consider charitable. I would like to see the number of charities streamlined and rather than have 100 charities vying for my £10 per month, pool the skills of the very best into a few key charities who will actually work as a team to overcome the real problems. There are some fantastic charities out there and some amazing people, i would like to see them come together and work collectively, rather than compete with each other for the same £1.

Success stories are great to see, yet they are (in the bigger picture) very sparce. Aid from countries increases each year, charities raise more than ever before and yet i still see the same starving malnourished kids on tv. Its time to cure the disease, not keep dressing up and treating the wounds.

Much the same as "wiping out 3rd world debt", great idea that, then the corrupt governments can once again run up huge arrears and in 50 years time, we can have another appeal to "wipe out 3rd world debt" exactly what has happened in the past.

wind - as in what you do with a watch......

i take that as 'Wind' ie the wind is blowing in a northern direction

isnt the english language wonderful! ;)

You asked what positive contribution humanity has made to the planet, not what we have done to sustain the planet. I consider all the above positive contributions. I agree that we should protect and preserve our environment and the planet but not out of some magnamimous desire to safeguard a piece of rock, but just because living in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the earth will mean our species and the other species on the earth will continue to be able to live on it as our home for longer.


Ultimately when the planet dies as it almost inevitably will as the sun going red-giant leads to conditions where life as we know it will stop being able to exist, we will most likely be looking for a new home. The planet is jsut a home for us. It is not more important than the life on it, which hopefully will continue to exist long after the planet has died.

how does literature contribute to the planet? it contributes to the development of humankind but not to the planet itself. what does humankind contrubute to the planet? lots of folk know how to do simple things to protect out environment but many couldnt give a toss. thats my point!!

yes i get your angle but charities cannot take on the weight of corrupt government. they try to help the poverty and illness but could do more. in my opinion some charities are corrupt themselves si its about weeding those ones out and yes joining forces would go along way. take the aid direct to the people and not through the government who take the opportunity to make themselves rich at the expense of folk who really do need support.
maybe i read your post the wrong way but it did rile me as i though you were saying whats the point treating HIV and AIDs when folk will only die anyway. thats not true for everyone who has HIV and people should have the chance to be free of disease.

I think you did read my post the wrong way. All i want is the source of the problem addressed before anything else is, because as with most things in life, if the top is corrupt then eveything under it will be also. Cure the fundamental problem and the associated issues will all naturally improve along with it.

Well amongst other things literature can educate people on environmental concerns.

I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy.

"I find the idea that humanity is a plague on the planet ludicrous. If you don't believe that humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet then I doubt I will ever sway you from your hopeless misanthropy."


Can someone translate that for me please ... we never used big words at my school.

I am abit thick as well   :D.   I am still working my way through the Mr Men series of books for under 5's .  They are very tough to read .  I am confused as well   :D

i dont remember saying that humanity was a plague on the planet? and no i dont think humanity's development is inextricably linked to the development of the planet. are you kidding. what is humanity doing to develop the planet? and literature that is available to all if they can read. It does not stop people treating the enivronment and the planet well. all environmentalists are doing is trying to prevent any more harm to the world, or are involved in tryiing to clean up mess left by humans.
you get me wrong if you think humans are a plague. i love humans and i know we can learn but humankind is in no way linked to the development of mother natures planet.

mad :)

we both agree with that :)

You asked what positive contribution humanity has made to the planet, not what we have done to sustain the planet. I consider all the above positive contributions. I agree that we should protect and preserve our environment and the planet but not out of some magnamimous desire to safeguard a piece of rock, but just because living in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the earth will mean our species and the other species on the earth will continue to be able to live on it as our home for longer.


Ultimately when the planet dies as it almost inevitably will as the sun going red-giant leads to conditions where life as we know it will stop being able to exist, we will most likely be looking for a new home. The planet is jsut a home for us. It is not more important than the life on it, which hopefully will continue to exist long after the planet has died.
[/quote]

well said i completely agree

I give to the nspcc i think its one of the most deserving charities.

But I'll tell you where the animal charities go wrong in their advertising/campaigning, their t.v adverts are screened immediately before/after the nspcc advert.

I defy anyone compelled to pledge money to do so in favour of the animal charity when they've just heard how the money that they apportion for charitable donations could contribute to the salvation of children either living in poverty or the victim of some kind of abuse.

how can you give money to house a dog when your aware that the same amount of money could be used to help protect a child currently suffering abuse, and deprivation?

I also support childrens charities, but agree with Red Dog about the heavy handed techniques imposed by the NSPCC.  I used to have a regular direct debit set up sending what I could afford every month. However, I kept getting bombarded with post saying "if you gave us an extra £x a month, this chid could be freed from abuse etc". It made me feel so guilty that I couldn't afford to give more, and I too thought that the money could be better spent than on target people already giving what they could.

I had to cancel the regular payments when I went on unpaid maternity leave, and didn't start them up again. I now give occasional lump sums anonymously so I'm not on the mailing list.

I understand your point, however on a personal front, if i saw an abused kitten advert and a starving child advert straight after, i could easily give to the kitten advert instead of the child one. The point is when you see these adverts, if you are going to be donating something, then one of those adverts will touch a place in your heart for whatever reason that may be. I have always loved cats, had them since i was 2 years old. I have seen one of my cats give birth to 3 litters, i've held one of her kittens in my arms as it squealed and took its last breath and then died. Ive lost 2 cats to old age, i've had one run over. Cats are a big part in my life. The disgusting story 2 days ago about the cat being tortured is the most effected i have ever been after watching something on tv. Far more than any poverty or food campaign for a starving child. I guess to put it bluntly, i could easily care more about the kitten, than i do about the child. If a starving child slept rough on the corner of my street and i saw him/her daily and they played a bigger part in my life, this could easily be reversed.

In writing this and reading what i'm writing, i understand this may seem a little strange, maybe not. Cats, animals, in fact all wildlife have a place in my heart. Wildlife is the most amazing and fascinating thing on this earth for me. I have had a starling for the past 6 weeks or so, who perches in the tree in my front garden and sings all day long, he has clicked that i have overseeded my lawn and the defenceless grass seeds are there for the taking. Far from being pissed off with this little fella, everytime i hear him singing he makes me smile. I spend half my day ensuring one of my 4 cats and the other 20 odd on my road do not put an end to this little fellas cheery life. This little fella has put more smiles on my face this year than any other single person. Whats more, he has done it completely unknowingly.

At the very start of the process of a child being born, two adults make a decision to have sex. The consequences of this act and the possible things that could occur after having sex are known by all involved. The child that comes into this world has a reason why he/she is there and someone to either blame or thank. Animals aren't like this, they (like us) have an instinct to reproduce, but that is all, whereas we have the instinct and intelligence to understand the complete process, what it means, what will happen, the world we will be bringing our offspring into etc.

Now of course when you compare a kitten to a child, they are equally innocent, however at some higher level the child being on this earth has a reason which can be accounted for and as such the kitten being on this earth is more innocent (for me) than the child.

About 5 years ago, i found one of the kittens of a new litter dead in my kitchen. The other 3 did not look too good either. At 3am i telephoned the vet and he said bring them straight up along with the mother. To cut a long story short the 3 kittens had a blood transfusion off the mother and intense medication for a few days. They survived. This process cost me just under £400. If at any stage somebody had asked me to let the cats die and donate the £400 to help starving children, i would never have agreed, even if the children were put in front of me. Some people love pets, some hate them, some don't care either way. Point being my cats are my kids and there would be very few who would take precedence over them in a decision where one had to die.

If my house was on fire and i realised my cat was stranded inside, i would not even think about my own safety, i would have to try and save her. My terrapin and monkey would fall into the same category. When i make a decision to have a pet, i am consciously deciding to take care of that animal for the next xx years of its life and that i will do everything i can to make its life happy and long.

If you are giving, whether that be to a child or an animal, it matters not. Bringing a smile or some happiness to something else other than yourself is one of the most valuable assets you have. Ponder not on which cause to donate, the important thing is that you are giving. There are enough people in this world, with enough varying views to ensure that donations are spread across the spectrum. Just go with your heart.

I agree with leehack.  I would give to the cats, or dogs, or donkey sanctuaries, or a numerous amount of other animal charities.  I am not against charity for people, I have given to this in the past. But if I have a box of books, etc and want to donate them to charity, I always hand them into the PDSA.

Charity isn't a competition.  Just because I, as well as many others decide to support animal charities, this doesn't make me a bad person.  It also doesn't make people who decide animal charities are their preferred place for charitable donation wrong either.  Some people give to sick and starving Developing Nations.  Some people give to sick and starving animals.  Both individuals are correct, but in their own ways.