blonde poker forum

ESPN's favourite pet, Dutch Boyd, won the Short Handed event at the WSOP, beating Joe Hachem in the heads up battle.

No doubt this will get a load of coverage as ESPN have been bigging up Dutch and 'The Crew' for the past 2 years, conveniently forgetting to mention his previous role in the poker world as the owner of online site Poker Spot which went bust despite Dutch's best efforts (i.e. allegedly using players' funds to try to keep it afloat).

I'm guessing he won't be repaying people out of the money he won.

Score one for those with fewer scruples than the typical Blondite!

Sheriff

Sheriff

Do you know where I can read a report for this event ?   

thanks


 :)up  Thanks Snoops

There will be one up on blonde later tonight.

Never knew that about dutch,

I really like Joe as a player and seems a nice fella off the felt.

Still, nice to see him doing well and not turning into a "moneymaker champion"

 :o

are you trying to suggest that Moneymakers result was a one-off fluke?

If ESPN had their way you never would, but its been well documented elsewhere.  That's why I feel its worth mentioning as this result will surely be given a positive 'spin' on the WSOP coverage.

Sheriff

My lips are sealed :-X

In a couple of biographies I have seen online about D.Boyd, this is mentioned briefly. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Boyd


I thought Moneymaker was a winner in the high Limit HE games on pokerstars in recent times? 

Please lord let me become a one off poker world champion fluke

my thoughts exactly!

I'd settle for WSOP runner up 8)

From : http://www.rakefree.com/faq13.htm#faq (http://www.rakefree.com/faq13.htm#faq)

LAP: There were some troubles with that first room you operated. What happened?

Dutch Boyd : There were lots of troubles with Pokerspot. First off, the market had changed dramatically in the 9 months it took us to get up and running. Paradise Poker released their software two months after we started the Pokerspot project, and they were worlds ahead of Planet Poker. They still had a lot left to be desired in their software, though, such as the hi-low games, spread-limit betting, and tournaments. We released our software in May 2000 and it was pretty much empty. We didn’t yet have tournaments, which would come a few months later. We didn’t save any money to market the thing, and we had a lot of difficulties running it. And we didn’t build any type of back-office management tools to help us run the thing… so we pretty much had none of the competitive advantages that we set out to have. We were running this little cardroom with hardly any players, and we were having trouble managing it. We pretty much were winging things like customer support and the financial side of things. Things like cashouts were all done manually, and we had no Customer Relations Management solutions… the first four months we were up, we were using Outlook Express to manage all of our customer support emails. We were very much over our head.

Things started looking up in September 2000, when we released our tournaments. We were the first online cardroom to offer online poker tournaments, and none of the other sites would catch up for a good 9 months (when Pokerstars released their software). This started drawing a lot of traffic to the site. We developed our back-office tools and things were going a lot smoother. By December, we were in third place behind Paradise and Planet and looking pretty good. We raked $100k that month and we were growing at an astonishing rate. People loved those poker tournaments. In January, we raked $160k. Things didn’t look like they were going to slow down. And we were finally starting to get to the point where we had a marketing budget.

That January, though, things fell apart. We were pushing all of the credit card deposits through a company called Net Pro Ltd. I met them a few times at the various gaming conferences. Back then, there weren’t too many ways to get money into an online gaming account (and this is still a major problem facing online operators). We couldn’t process credit card transactions like a retail business.

In the middle of January, Net Pro told us that they hadn’t gotten the funds that they processed for us (all of the credit card transactions from the middle of December until then) from their bank. They said it was a temporary problem, and that we’d just have to sit tight for a week while they work it out. At the time, it didn’t seem like it was going to be as big of a deal as it turned out to be. They assured us we’d be getting all of those deposits, and that it wouldn’t take more than a week or so.

Two weeks later, it became clear that it wasn’t a temporary problem at all. They stopped answering their phones and we were left holding the bag for 6 weeks of credit card deposits. We had several hundred cashout requests with no way of paying them out. And without new chips entering the system, all of the action on the site died very quickly.

There were about 1000 players who had money on deposit with us. Many of them were able to charge back their credit cards and at least not be on the hook for the money that they deposited. But there was no way to make good on any of the money that they had won. It was a big disaster.

----------------------------------------------------

LAP: Many people don't believe your story about the PokerSpot funds being kept from you. What do you have to say to the folks that believe you "took the money and ran"?

Dutch Boyd : I understand how people can blame me for losing their money, and think that the whole site was a scam to run off with a few hundred thousand in player deposits. And it’s pretty hard to explain to a customer that they aren’t getting their cashout because your site had problems with a business partner. Players don’t understand how complicated it is to run these online sites… when they make a deposit and it shows up in their account, it would make sense that the online site has their money in a bank account somewhere, when in reality that online site is depending on another company to make good on that purchase.

A lot of people naturally assume that I took all of that money and partied, buying a big house in the Carribean and breast implants for a blonde girlfriend. But that isn’t true. When Pokerspot failed, it ruined me. I didn’t have a way to pay my rent, I didn’t have a job anymore, and I had no idea how I was going to turn it all around.

--------------------------------------------------

LAP: What steps did you take to try and recover the money?

Dutch Boyd : The first thing we did was try and get our money from Net Pro. We filed a lawsuit, and did everything we could to pressure them into giving us the deposits. But it became pretty clear that they didn’t have the money. In law school, one of the first sayings that you learn is “you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip”. It means that if some 19 year old kid gets drunk and crashes his car into your house, sure… you can sue him. You can probably even with a few hundred thousand. But you’re not going to see any of it, since he doesn’t have any money. He’s judgment proof. With Net Pro, it was the same thing. They didn’t have any money to collect.

So after that, it became clear that we’d have to figure out another way to pay the players back. The only way I could see doing that was by selling the business. We had a few assets… a userlist of about 8500 players, some pretty decent software, and a pending patent for the online poker tournaments we developed. We shopped around a bit and had some offers. We finally agreed on an offer from a large Montreal-based online casino. They agreed to give us all jobs and $1 million for the software… $500k would be ear-marked to pay back the players. We moved up to Montreal and started working with them. About four months into the deal, they called us into their office and told us that they were no longer interested in paying back the player debt… they’d give us $300k for the software (which wasn’t nearly enough to pay back the players) and we could still have our jobs with them. We turned it down and decided we’d be better off trying to salvage some of the deals that we had turned down which would include paying back the Pokerspot players. By then, though, none of the old offers still stood. The original developers had to take other jobs, and without them being able to support the software, I was unable to find a buyer.

---------------------------------------------------

LAP: After Pokerspot's demise what did you do? (i.e. for work, play, etc.)

Dutch Boyd : I wasn’t feeling too high on life after the Pokerspot project failed. It is a very discouraging thing having a failed business. You put your heart into something for a few years, and watch it grow. I went through a pretty bad depression after the site went down. I drank a lot and didn’t have a lot of interest in things. I picked up a few consulting gigs for online casinos and cardrooms, which gave me enough money to pay my rent and eat. I played a lot of pool.

This was also the time when I propped in San Jose. I did pretty well for the few months I was out there. I went out to San Jose in 2002 with about $2k and turned it into $25k the first month I was out there. I won a half dozen of the tournaments at Garden City that month, and took second in one of the bigger San Pablo events. So I made a little money out in California… then I moved back to Missouri to figure out what I was going to do.

I picked up another consulting gig earlier this year and moved to Antigua for a few months. It was a pretty relaxing time for me… pretty much just advising a sportsbook out there who was trying to make the next big cardroom. That’s when I came up with the idea of having a rakefree cardroom. I tried to get the sportsbook behind it, but they didn’t see the business sense in giving up a potential $50 million a year in rakes. But I thought it had a lot of potential, so I came back to the states to work on it in May.

I'm not a greedy monkey - when i go over there later in the month of course i will be playing to win but last year the entire final table became millionaires.

This year will be even more and therefore I'll settle for a final table :)

Sherriff - how can you comment about a player, who 1: you do not know and 2. have no idea what in fact happened to PokerSpot and 3. call him dishonest player? Think you need to rethink if you maintain making ridiculous posts as the one above. So easy to slander people from behind a desktop when you have fuck all information on hand to do it with. I believe the word is: "little to do".

consider yourself told off mr sherriff

yup, disgraceful post.

here is an interesting Bit regarding your question. Im not taking any sides on this one, just relaying some info guys, we all have a high interest in poker, some more than other, and just feel this is useful info to know, if only for this thread:

LAP: Do you have a plan in place that would eventually pay back those that lost their funds at PokerSpot?

Dutch Boyd : There are basically two ways that I see the Pokerspot players getting paid back. The first way is through Rakefree.com. The business plan will call for purchasing the old Pokerspot assets in return for assuming the player debt. Like I mentioned before, there are several assets which are still in the old company. Proprietary poker software is not cheap, and it can definitely make business sense for Rakefree.com to purchase the software, the patents, and the old userlist for the amount it would take to pay off the Pokerspot debt. Ideally, this debt would be paid before Rakefree.com begins its operations.

The second way is by pursuing a breach of contract claim against the Montreal-based casino which pulled out of the deal we made to sell the software and pay the players back. Up until now, I haven’t had the money to go forward with that lawsuit.

I suppose a third way is if, by some miracle, I win a few million at poker. This year at the WSOP I pledged that if I won, I would personally pay back the Pokerspot debt. A lot of people got pissed at that, because they said it wasn’t enough… that I should be giving up every penny I make (in or outside of poker) until the debt is paid off. I think that’s a very unrealistic expectation. I don’t feel like that debt is my debt. Pokerspot was not Dutch Boyd. It was a corporation, not a shell of a corporation. I didn’t even own a controlling amount in it. And I’m not going to be carrying the debt as mine. But if I was able to make enough money so that the player debt wasn’t a majority of my net worth, I would pay it back to restore my reputation.

I am personally very happy for Dutch. Anyone who goes through the sort of depression he has to deal with deserves some breaks :)

His intentions are now out in the open, so only time will tell what happens.

Lets not fight guys, lets all hold hands and love each other.....come on, group hug!

Go search on 2+2 if you want to find a volume of information on the subject.  In particular, look for MSSunshine's experiences at being left $56k out of pocket thanks to Dutch and Pokerspot.  As I said earlier, the issue is very well documented in many places and I've been following developments in this story for over 2 years.

I choose to comment because ESPN have spent 2 years promoting Dutch during the WSOP coverage as if he was their adopted child whilst choosing to completely overlook this issue.  It irritates me to watch it and the story of his bracelet win will only increase the level of sycophantic coverage he gets.  Personally, I think people should be made aware of Dutch's past before they rush to congratulate him.

Believe what you want to believe, I have my own opinions on the matter and I have chosen to voice them here as it seems that there is an active campaign afoot among sections of the poker media to ensure no high-profile player is adversely affected by the skeletons in their closet, and Dutch Boyd has more skeletons than most.

Link to latest 2+2 thread - with notable contributions from Greg Raymer and Matthew Hilger (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=tv&Number=6407294&Searchpage=1&Main=6397752&Words=dutch&topic=&Search=true#Post6407294)

Sheriff

I don't know how anyone can defend him.
What he did is akin to you buying in at a casino, playing a couple of hours of poker and going to cash out only to be told sorry we spent your cash on paying personel and we can't give you any money.

How fast would said casino operators remain outside of the bar view hotel in any western country? Answers on the back of the worlds smallest violin please.

all people are saying is, there are two sides to every story, and no one should really go on what other people say about him, weather it be the 2004 world champion or not.

as i said earlier, i aint defending him, nor am i slating him, only time will tell in my eyes.

I am still waiting for him to pay me back about $50 that I had in Pokerspot.

I agree with everything that Sheriff has posted.

Dave, I have some beads we could all wear.  I also have an old bango somewhere as well.  We could all sing a song if you want, that would be fun .   :D

There are indeed two sides of every story and regardless of the problems with credit card processing company that stiffed them, they were using player deposits as operational capital.

There are very good reasons why doing this would get said individual locked up in most countries and thats because startups have a high rate of failure and governments dont want people getting screwed.

Who cares what greg raymer says? The issue as I see it is that he broke every single common sense rule of business which in most countries is illegal anyway, and yet he can throw his hands up and walk away if it all goes tits up as most startups do.



Heres something to make it even more simple:

Situation A:
You take your brand new sports car into a garage to fix a problem ( ie you transfer your asset to another party to perform a service paid at an agreed rate that enables you to perform an action [ playing poker in the real case - drive your car in our example ] ) , you go to pick it up several days later and it turns out the company went bankrupt and sold your car to pay some debts and buggered off.

You are
A) Rather ticked off about the whole thing and if you ever see the chap might have a strong word with him.
B) Rather understanding because you're sure the guy had the best intentions and was going to pay you back.


Situation B
You hear about Situation A:
You
A) Think there are two sides to any story
B) You think he's a gigantic asshole or simply incompetant beyond belief ( and criminally incompetant at that ).



Regardless of the persons intentions they have defrauded/stolen or been criminally incompetant/negligent/whatever, and deserve a few years in a cell.

agreed it must be hard,but would you be sticking up for him if he didnt have a disability?i agree with sheriff

click here to view the results of this comp, including one blondeite who managed to make the money before losing to a five outer

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/3026 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/3026)

Shame Joe didnt win this, i cant imagine there was ANY support for Dutch during that HU battle!

what about da crew?

Yo, dig it, sucka! Wesside

i would still say there is two sides to every story, and only time will tell.

Let me ask you another question:

Say your Car Garage was infact a rather large company like Kiwik-fit, and the situation which you have outlined above actually happened. its the companies fault it went bankrupt and not the actually manager of that particular branch. ie, everyone goes on about dutch boyd owing them money, when in actual fact its not him, its poker spot 'the company' i can only assume it wasnt a 1 man team?

and TBH honest i dont feel its right that he should have to pay out of HIS own Pocket, i do feel it should come from somewhere, ie if the no rake .com deal does work out then the debt should be paid off via that deal, but out of a guys own pocket just because he was associated with the company, i dont think so.

With regards supporting him at the WSOP against Hachem, i wouldnt mind who won.

You're talking alot of sense today Dave. :)up

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=pokerspot&spell=1




"Pokerspot.com is a trusted poker website that delivers the best in online poker websites."

rotflmfao

You cannot compare a multi national PLC (KwikFit) to a LTD company like PokerSpot.

This guy is a joke and everyone here knows it. No one was happy he won! Dutch is not liked or trusted in the poker world! He will never pay the $$$ back and that is fine but he treated people like shit.

It was funny to see all the poker people begging for Joe H to win, The only people cheering for Dutch were his new "young crew", all NEW friends. No Scott F. or Bret.

I talked to Scott F a few days ago and he stressed he has nothing to do " w/ that loser".

He must be a talented player though.  Was that not his 3rd final table at a WSOP event?   

who gives a SHIT?

You can be the best player or worst player in the world but if you lie and cheat what good are you? This guy is in for a long road and I dont see him making it. Ultimate Bet is being laughed at for putting a shirt on him. Now they will be stuck w/ his baggage!

Pokerspot were similar to Sporting Options the betting exchange that "padded" their markets with client's deposits.

Many of those clients were recruited by a well-known UK based poker professional.

Sporting Options also folded their tents and left in the night.

Did pokerspot definately use client's money as operating capital then? If so then that is bang out of order - even if he had the difficulties with the card payments.

If it was only the fact that the card payments company never actaully gave pokerspot the cash then I can't see how they could ever pay clients back?

I can't really comment as I don't know the guy.  I only mix with non celebs here in Kilmarnock  :D.  Although, I did meet Glen Michael once.  I don't know if you are familiar with him in the States.  He is a megastar here in the UK.  Think of a US TV star like David Letterman, well Glen Michael is about 1000 times more famous.  I bumpted into him in ASDA and then again at a venue he was playing in Kilmarnock. It was the Kimarnock Scout Hall  :D.  Ok, I know that the Kilmarncok Scout Hall isn't like Madison Square Garden or Broadway. But he is one of those types of performers who prefer to take a £1.20 admission fee than the $100 million per year salary. He is in it for the love of the job. A true star.  It was a terrible loss when his " Cavalcade " show got taken off the air

I don't know what type of person D.Boyd is like, maybe one day I will have the pleasure of knocking him out of a WSOP event. Who knows.    I like most people though, even the people that I don't like. I still like  :D

Note to self - Stay off the Ribena. It makes me talk even more p.sh than normal  :-)
 

Its a matter of record that Mr Boyd was well aware that the Company was using players blances to run the company & "rob Peter to pay Paul". But now he can pay some of that cash back, eh? As he promised.

We "had words" in Copenhagen in January 2005, and the man does not have an ounce of remorse.

And, I suspect, he was once an American teenager. 'nuff said,eh Byron?

AND he was wearing a bandana in Copenhagen,though, secretly, I may try one of those myself. Pretty cool.

NO SECRETLY!!!

WE WANT TIKAY WEARING A BANDANA AT BLONDEBASH III!!!

I could do with a good laugh............  ;goodvevil;

I'll bring him one....

Your average to middling american teenager would only have to play internet poker for a few days to be able to earn enough to pay back all of Dutch's debts.

Perhaps a knotted hankie would be more your style?

(http://fi.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-scotsmannew.gif)

Grief, you're making my head spin, now...

i know, it aint like me lol

I wont judge someone i havent had any dealings with. Until i do, D Boyd is just like any other pro player to me

I don't mean to be flippant Dave, but how do you feel about Hitler?

LOL!!!



[attachment deleted by admin]

Not prejudging someone who has made mistakes in their past is a little different to judging the most evil bastard in history dont you think? little harsh on the fella.

Not really too fair that.

How do you feel about the collective word of the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, The Times, The Guardian, the Daily Telegraph, La Repubblica, Der Spiegle, Le Monde, Die Welt, Helsingin Salomat, Sydney Morning Herald, Al Ahram, Sueddeutsche Zeitung and the Angling Times (all of whom concur that Hitler was a pretty naughty fellow.)

This compared to the word of a bunch of gamblers (no disrespect intended) that Dutch Boyd is a nasty piece of work.

Personally, I've heard enough to not be a fan of Mr. Boyd but....

....I'll respect Dave's right to reserve judgement (without giving up any opinions he may hold on historical figures he hasn't been drinking with)

Other than the pokersite money that he failed to pay back.  What are the reasons for people's negative attitudes towards him?      I don't know the guy, so have no positive or negative feeling for him.   I did a search online about D.Boyd and it seems he is a popular guy and well liked.   Out of curiosity,  why don't the other players like him?   

If lots of people tell me 'Don't trust that guy, he ripped a lot of people off', then I tend not to trust that guy until he has proved trustworthy.

I'm all for keeping an open mind but in in this case there seems to be overwelming evidence that Boyd behaved improperly and has made no attempt to make amends.

Well, your first sentence sums it up.

I have my own view on him, & I have met & spoken with hm, but I'm happy for folks to make their own minds up.

But I think the suggestion that he is "well-liked" might meet some resistance.

Good player though.

so why is it then, that you think Ronnie o Sullivan is "arrogant" and tony g is a "Pratt"

do you know these guys?

Its not that his pokersite went belly up its that he used players money to keep it running - this is from his own words - not from what anyone badmouthing him has been saying, everything I've opinined has been from words from his own mouth that

A) it was run by a group of kids and basement programmers and secure as my piggy bank
B) they took ( some might say stole )  players money to fund advertising/costs/etc.
C) he has no clue about basic business concepts, morals and ethics and a distinct lack of common sense.

Would anyone here play on a site coded by three part time coders lead by a 21 year old wannabe pro that wants to use its customers funds to expand?
Thats basically what they did.

To Scottish Dave - I can't help but think you just enjoy being a forum troll - Boyd has given his side of the story which is obviously going to be biased in his favour so if what he says is spun to make him look a little better what they really did was probably worse.

I wonder if he still drew a salary when the site was on its last legs before the customers knew...

I wonder if anyone can come up with an Arctic Monkeys set of lyrics for this ;)

It's a matter of record that he used Players Account Balances to fund the site. Thats enough for me.

Your asking me to choose between the integrity of the press and my fellow poker players?

 rotflmfao

Fair enough, I guess I could have made that point differently.  :blonde:

(The Angling Times is beyond reproach though)

I find you amusing Bolt , even though you give me every reason not to  :D .   Perhaps because I have seen the two people you mention interviewed and I have only seen D.Boyd play poker. It is hard to get an impression of someone who I have only seen play and not heard in an interview.  With O'Sullivan and Tony G, I may be wrong, but this is only the feeling I get.  I have an impression of you Bolt, but I better not get into that here  :D

i take it blonde doesnt do that then?  rotflmfao

No, it does not.

What year did Poker Spot rob all their customers?

Pass. Guess the late 1990s

As I recall it was 2000/2001, they were the first to run MTT's, but they didn't last more than a few months.

Dutch Boyd has only gone and done a show with "The Circuit".
Apparently according to the circuits tea boy they asked some of the tough questions regarding pokerspot, the show isnt up yet but I will link when it is ( its normally up by now ).

http://media.cardplayer.com/audio/t/the_circuit_122.mp3

There you go.

as Nem so rightly pointed out, you cant compair someone like hitler to someone like D Boyd.

also Red, a lot have said Hitler had a little sense to his madness, no one can force everyone to dislike someone.

I dont dislike Boyd

excuse me, who the fuck do you think you're talking to......someone has a different opinion (and rightly so) from yourself, and you have to start hitting out with petty name calling.

I think this pettiness just sums up your intelligence....

....if you want to speak to me about this (although i wont hold my breathe, for a small minded person like yourself) take it to PM.

Scottish Dave

awesome

take disagreements to PM please

No flaming on the forum thanks

i have already asked for this to go to PM

I know, thanks

are you guys going to make up at the blonde bash? :)

still awaiting his reply!

I rarely wear make-up.  Don't need it, with my complexion.

Dutch Boyd is a thief and rightfully so, not at all well liked in the poker community.

In the latest WPT mag, there is an article about the Crew.  According to D.Boyd the Crew are to reform for a reality TV show.  He apparently mentions this in his blog article.   

I have nothing against D. Boyd, he hasn't wronged me in any way.   

Let's not argue folks.  To quote John Lennon  " All we are saying is give peace a chance " .   I have some beads at home, like I said before, we could all get together for a sing song.....  group hug everyone.....  see that's better isn't it  :D

thank you, expressing an opinion is everyones right and im glad you have.

Don't believe a word. I saw them apply his make-up for poker 425, it was like grouting the brickwork on an 18th century farm house.

You know big hollywood stars use haemmoroid cream on their face to reduce their wrinkles....
Worth a try surely?

 ;goodvevil;

I need that cream for it's intended purpose. Colchester Kev says it's because I sit on a lot of fences.

I just realised - what wrinkles?

You know, those sea snails you find on the beach.

Gryff - i was wondering if you could please speak to me via PM thanks

Scottish Dave

Here's someone who wishes he could say the same (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6544312&an=0&page=0#Post6544312)

thats unfortunate for him, but its not Boyd, its poker spot 'The Company'

Yes, people even have opinions on subjects that they know nothing about.

are you saying some one other than us are posting about stuff they know nothing about?