blonde poker forum

Prob old news but after a bitova tilt last night thought I'd watch some poker instead and caught the final table featuring El B and finally heads up between Surinder S and Tony.

I generally like characters at a table - colour and all that. But I thought he was just a tad beyond the pale. Would be interesting to know if anyone here knows him personally and thinks he's a good egg. Mind you good egg or not still think he borders on the unwatchable and definitely unlikeable.

Didn't the hit stage show 'Muppetry of the Penis' originate in Australia ?

he used to be an Administrator on this board, and kind of a Partner with Tony and Dave, he has (Apparently) done good things for blondepoker.com

....Altho i didnt notice, however Tikay mentioned that he did get us a lot of money, which helped with live updated and the progression if this community

I still think what happened in Paris was disgusting, and cant see past it.

Suppose I'd equate it to a charge against him of 'bringing the game into disrepute'.

Generally speaking I really enjoy the company of poker players - met so many genuine, decent people in the game.

I think I'd take the view that, sadly, behaviour like that which goes unpunished or unrestrained makes the whole poker community the poorer for it.

He is a gentleman who gets undeserved bad press from surprising quarters.  Don't believe everything you see on TV or read in forums.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

 :D

i doubt that severely!

You guys can believe what you wish, it doesn't matter what I say, you've watched TV, you've got your opinion.

 ;sleep;

Is he your boss or are you in business with him mr moves?

I have met tony and as you say he was a real nice guy but if he starts screaming insults at me at the poker table then I'm screaming back.

He has been in the past.

ill not be screaming back, ill be putting my fist through his face! - even if i wasnt at that table in paris, if i was in the audience in the other room, id need to some how breach security just to get in there to lamp him one.

Surinder coped with it well, I thought.  Great TV.

He's not appealing to watch at all IMO, much like Koresh on LNP.

Now, I wonder why you don't like Koresh......

As for Tony G, I would have to have more proof that he is a "nice guy" than just helping blonde out.

I am an old fashioned dweeb who likes good manners.  From what I have seen from Tony G, he doesn't display manners.  I never see other top players like DN, Howard Lederer or Ivey behaving like that.  If I wanted to model myself on a top player, it would be a calm and respectful person at the table.  As for being rude to other players,  It isn't British is it ( said in an old Brigadier's voice  :D ).  I don't think many Brits like that kind of thing.  Perhaps in Amerca this is more accepted.

Moves the point is he is not a Gent, no gentleman acts like that at the tables. And it wasnt just once or twice at the WPT, Keith Hawkins detailed a story that occoured in Amsterdamn i believe and then Tony came on here and slagged him off!

Classy.

I remember being very very very pleased when I saw Surinder win that one...

Isn't Surinder good at Karate or some other Martial Art? I wonder if it makes you a better poker player. I think they said on telly that Marcel does it and of course we have the Blonde hard nuts Sark and AdamM, any other poker players we should avoid in a dark alley? Somebody mentioned Colchester Kev is a Ninja.

lolololol  me a hard nut.  I am a complete wimp  :D       Adam is a hard nut.   Flushy must have picked up a few tricks from those 24 boxsets.  Jack Bauer is a tough guy remember.

Poker is all about opinions. 

Only when it comes to subterfuge involving pies.

Tony G is an ok fella.

I keep thinking of responding but that rare picture of the Broadmoor patients' day out keeps popping up after Royal Flush's posts and I lose my train of thought :)

On the subject matter, let's remember we are talking about the televised WPT finals where there is no sane behaviour. Phil Laak's ludicrous leaping around behind the dealer was unfunny too. That is WWF Poker, not WPT.

Tony G almost certainly hams it up for these but also knows he can put opponents right out their strides. Matusow and Hellmuth do it (albeit I think that's more a never-left-the-pram condition with them). When it's on US TV, it is the entertainment game, not the Queensbury's Rules. There's a John McEnroe in every sport.

Have a scout round tonight and you might just see it again!!

The strangest televised behaviour was during the poker event Mathew Stevens won.  Alex Pagulayan ( former 9 ball champ ) was crawling around the floor wearing oversized jeans.  " I have a family I have to feed " was the line I remember he said.  When I was watching it, I couldn't help but think he was as strange as me.  After it had finished I phoned my Dad and asked if he had ever visited the Philippines during his Navy years

 rotflmfao

Its the same torny! I was up until about 4am the night before with Pagaluyan playing in the bar along with a few others. He still owes me 20 quid FFS.

If you ever wanted to sit and be mesmerised by crazy stories, he is the man. Unbelievable life story. I remember one tale where he kept hussling on the pool table and chose the wrong character once. He left the room being shot at.

Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that his conduct in Paris was that of a gentleman?

He may be a gentleman when it suits him, but thats not quite the same thing, Is it?

Why was the bad press undeserved?

I'm not having a pop at you Mr Moves, I just want to know why you think like you do

lol.  He comes across as a nice guy on TV.  Even when he gets beaten, he is smiling.  Unlike, Earl the Pearl Strickland who never smiles.

Love him or hate him, he was deffo good entertainment. (Pagaluyan that is)

That's kind of what I meant - it was entertaining for me to watch Surinder beat him.

Although perhaps that's not quite the result he (Tony) had in mind. ;D

Classic comment - Marcel Luske being interviewed by Shana, about Tony's behaviour: "He needs to calm down for a bit. And perhaps some black coffee..." :D


[Edit: Written before Lee changed his statement (above) to indicate he was talking about Pagulayan and not Tony G...  ::) ]

No, I like Alex Pagulyan.  He is a good player ( pool ) and seems a decent bloke in inerviews after.  I saw him play a 9 ball tourney on SKY at Christmas time.  Apparently he hadn't picked up a cue in a month before the game started.  He still won convincingly.  Natural talent.  He plays a lot of online poker

Hi Tom,

I get on with the man.  Everybody has off days.  Most importantly, TV and media can produce reactions that aren't the day to day norm'.  I try to base my opinion on people from my own experiences.

Many sports have bad boys, probably all sports.  The poker bad boys generate great interest (look how quickly this thread has grown already).  They make for very watchable TV.

Tony G. is entertaining and very approachable.  I like the guy.  I don't care if that opinion is in the minority.

Hand on Heart, Tom.  What I saw in Paris is nothing compared to what I've seen and heard up and down Britain's card rooms in the last year.

Fair enough, I'm not saying there are not worse people, or that you have no right to like him. But I ask again, was it the conduct of a gentleman?

He dearly wanted to become a professional golfer. Had that "i will succeed" attitude to anything, this was his next aim.

I'm sure he would be the first to admit that wasn't his greatest day.

We all have off days.  That doesn't mean any single incident (or two or three or thirteen incidents) makes us less of a gentleman.

I spent a bit of time with Tony G in cardiff for the willy hill GP, he was a perfect gent and pleasant company, his antics at the table arent my cup of tea and i think it stinks, but away from the table he was a gent.   so i have to weigh up the facts, which is the real Tony G .... I would like to think its the guy that i met AWAY from the poker table.

Just for the sake of debate, what does make us less of a gentleman?

If a burglar only burgles for 1% of his life, is he a gent for the other 99% of the time?

Red's not mentioned Adolf yet, so this thread aint doing too bad :)

I think the debate is getting a little out of hand.  I expect they'll be references to murderers shortly!  

I doubt there isn't a person reading this (well, apart from sark, naturally!) that hasn't behaved poorly in their lives.  Yet, they would consider themselves a decent guy, maybe even a gentleman.

It wasn't getting out of hand as far as I was concerned, but I have no particular desire to continue if you don't want to.

He was very cowed afterwards and appologised profusely at every oportunity (he put a statement out on his blog that is probably still there), i also think that the last time this debate came up on here he posted on the thread. (MATT!!!!!!!).

I guess what counts at the end of the day is how a person treats his family and friends.  I am sure Tony G is a gent in both these areas. Therefor he probably gets all of our approval.  However his work ( poker ) causes another side of his character to be revealed.  Most people don't like it and wish he would consider the other players at his table a little more.

Your question "what makes us less of a gentleman" could bring about any number of responses, we could be at it all night!  

Who is and who isn't a gent is just a simply matter of opinion really.  Criteria for being gent is, again, a matter of opinion.

Tom,

We'll have to have a longer chat - without the Internet - another time.

I have to be up early tomorrow.  Bizarrely, considering this discussion, I have to play in a TV tournament at 10am in London.  I'll try not to upset anybody though ;)

Well (In my opinion) behaving like he did does make him less of a gentleman than he would be had he not behaved like that.

why not ask the camel, if he has any recollections of Tony.......last time i heard he insulted the Camels Mother?

I take it that "gentleman" is some kind of euphemism  :hello:

Watching Tony this week, it appears to me to be emphaised when the cameras are around, which gives me the impression that perhaps it's merely a form of self marketing. He's probably more intelligent than we give him credit for...

There is absolutely no excuse for Tony's actions in the Paris WPT or the Monte Carlo Millions. It really is as simple as that.

I guess my real thinking at the start of this was I dont really care if he was/is a gent or not.

What I care about is that there is no sanction to stop that kind of behaviour at the time it is going on.

Just the talking I found peurile but tolerable. It was the physical moves towards people I thought was overly pathetic and intimidating.

I know I woulda lumped him and taken a beating if necessary, always like a fight when there's plenty of people around to stop it :-)

I'm not sure lumping him should be considered any worse behaviour to be honest.

Why has knowone mentioned that he was absolougtly p**ssed out of his nut that night?

Because, unless he was force fed the alcohol, he is responsible for his acts and the consequences of it.

If alcohol was an excuse for doing anything in this life, we could have far worse people on the street who are released on a "iwaspissedmelord" plea.

i wasn't proposing that his being drunk was an excuse for his behaviour, just wondering as to why such an integral part of the cause of his actions that night had been omitted from discussion.

Because whether he was legless or not makes no difference at all?
Being pissed won't excuse anything, so pointless having in the equation.

can you differentiate between an excuse and an explanation?

what your saying is that because this doesn't serve as an excuse its "pointless" to discuss.

How can you form an accurate and fair opinion of someone by discounting the main cause of his actions?

If you cant handle the drink, then dont do it?!?!??

(Not aimed at Tony G or anyone in particular for that reason, just a generalisation about drinking)

Sorry to upset you Guys but I have Played Poker with Tony G ,numerous times and he has always been a Gent but if you want to get nasty and horrible then dont do it to Tony, the same about Stephen Pearce, very nice people but if you want to mix up the verbal then you are outmatched.

Personally every player has there game plan and thieir's is the verbal game to get into your head, some players are rock and some play loose but everyone is entitled to there game plan.
Chubbs

p.s  just what i have seen

I can yes, an excuse is usually a reason for something not happening as it was perceived to. An excuse if usually a one off event affecting another event. Tony G in the press for his behaviour is not something too rare, therefore is it often expected and therefore cannot be an excuse. (flat tyre, too lazy, lost the address etc. are typical "excuses", whereas can't handle his drink, is an unsavoury character, has no respect etc. are "reasons")


No, i think i have been quite clear on this point. If he chooses to drink, knowing full well what he is like when pissed (he will have grimaced at the tv a few times i'm sure), then he should be clever enough to not drink, IF the behaviour he shows when pissed is classed as "unacceptable" by himself. I believe there is at least one apology flying round on a forum somewhere, so he doesn't think he's the best behaved. Knowing this information, means if he proceeds to drink then he is accountable for any actions because of it. Unless he is force fed alcohol, he can't use this as an excuse.


I think majority of people who find this man rude, will agree that the reasons for this behaviour reach far further than 5 or 6 pints at the bar. To be this rude this many times means theres something up top a little loose.

Just a passing thought, could it be the drink that gets him to the final tables. and the antics that keep him so fresh in our minds is doing what it is  planned to do, just a thought

I agree 100% with this.

Tony G has these threads still going years after the incident, with people still talking about what happened. He's a smart guy.

I for one wont be giving my opinion on him because I find it nothing more than a PR stunt in the most ungentlemanly fashion.

Talking about his character on internet forums (fora?) means he has achieved his objective IMO.

I agree with this point.



got you discussing it though didn't i! ;) ;D

Good heated discussion is always good, keeps the mind working anyway.

Good debate started.

Oooo Goodie a debate, well here's my 2 cents: One poker player who isn't a gent at the poker table, never has been and never will be....................

Victoria Coren

Now there's someone this monkey wouldnt mind sharing his soft pirelli tyre with!!  0:-)

Sorry to upset you, but that didn't upset me  :D

Although i've never played poker with him i've interviewed him at length and his image at the table is just that, an image. It's good old Aussie sledging brought from the cricket pitch to the poker table. Whether this is good or bad is for another thread, another time.
The Surinder incident whilst out of line was just his way of shooting angles. He has said numerous times that the better player won that night and that he and Surindar are friends away from the table.
He's also stated that he believes once poker is on tv it's a sport and should be entertaining, and for me poker is more entertaining with Tony G at the table. Can anyone think of a better WPT episode than the Season Three final from Paris?

Also he takes everything with good humour if you look at his blog you'll see he got duped into turning up in the Rio poker room in just his bathrobe. Instead of throwing a hissy fit, he posed for pictures and responded to threads on other forums and took it in good grace. can you imagine Hellmuth or Matusow or even Negreanu taking such an incident in such a gentle manner?
And yes this man is smart, he co-owns pokernews.com, which is now bigger than cardplayer.

I think that is the most aweful bit of poker telly i have ever seen, even more cringeworthy than celebrity poker, so yes, pick any othet WPT final and it was better.

I agree. I have watched WPT's over and over, but I wouldn't watch that one again.

Actually, it does. Being pissed makes courts more lenient. Being constantly pissed makes courts send you on an alcohol programme instead of being punished.

tony G, helmuth and mike matusow are probably the most controversial players in the world while sat at a table but these are 3 guys that i would give up an online game to watch on t.v 100% entertainment. It is very different watching a competition on t.v obv than playing at the table but as viewers how can we moan at the entertainment given by these guys.

I think Tony G over stepped the mark in paris for sure, but who are we to say he was wrong. Did we pay his buy in? its up to the players around the table and the aviation management to enforce order. Its his money why can't he play how he likes, if players don't like this behaviour don't enter the comp!

I believe when tony G plays he is having fun. It wouldn't be the same for him to sit quietly, he enjoys winding people up and having a good craic. shouldn't this be allowed? Poker is about strengths and weaknesses, and if tony's strength is getting information and tells from talking to people then good luck to him, if it is personally offensive though a line must be drawn!  the question is however by whom?

Surely you don't believe this. Anyone can act however they like and rather than the "single" person causing the trouble being removed, others should leave or not join? So basically if he threw a left over sandwich at you and management didn't think he should be thrown out for it, you should get up and leave to minimise the risk of another one landing on your head? And if he is at any future tornies where you want to play, you should stay away, as should many others.


Acting like a decent human being is one of the biggest strengths you can show in life.

I'm with the action man and many other posters on this thread. Whilst there should be a code of conduct to which every player should conduct themselves, its players like Hellmuth, Matusow and Tony G who make poker on the TV entertaining to watch. Personally I'm fed up of the run of the mill 6 man "made for TV" tournaments that you get where the commentators talk all over what little table talk makes it into the show, and it becomes a case of how many all-ins can we fit into todays episode?

Players like this give the game another edge, and like it or not, bad boys get TV time and not without reason.

Can football fans think of anything Bryan Robson ever did? But mention the name Cantona and one of the first things that gets brought up is the Kung Fu kick. Yes, it was out of order and he got punished. But it gets remembered. Whilst that might not have been a marketing gimick, it certainly didnt harm his cause in the long run.

My two penneth anyway.

Players like Hellmuth, Matusow and Tony G do not make poker entertaining.

They DO make the bingo like final tables of WPTs where you each get half a big blind each slightly less likely to make me poke myself in the eye with a fork to endure the boredom though.

Watch high stakes poker, thats how it should be done - lots of table banter broadcast, not just formulaic crap showing bluffs and allins of which TV poker is mostly about sadly.

I guess its each to their own... I for one find Hellmuth in particular, hillarious to watch. Its like pokers version of Trigger Happy TV.

I find them quite amusing but I do think it's out of order too.  It's like watching someone have a comedy stumble over.  You don't want to laugh but something inside finds it amusing.

It is abuse though, just with out the punches.  The table full of season pro's are probably used to the banter that happens but if it's unleashed on a novice, then it could have a dramatic effect on him or her.  I've only played live once and God knows I was nervous enough.  If I had that abuse aimed at me then I don't know what I would do - probably either become really quiet and tilt out of the game or tell him what I thought of him and end up getting banned!  I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it.

There isn't any excuse for the behaviour and I agree that it should be down to the venue to deal with the matter.

Its all about personal opinion i guess. If i never saw him on a poker table again, it wouldn't affect my poker viewing at all.

One thing i do not know is how successful he has actually been at poker. This is probably due to me not caring as i just see him as a not very nice person.

When we watch men like Cantona, McEnroe, Hellmuth and Alex Higgins, we not only get their tantrums or moments of amazement for entertainment, we also get amazing play. What has he achieved in poker? it'd be nice to know, and therefore what has he added to the game? If he pisses more people off than he entertains, he hasnt been good for the game.



To be honest on this when you say Bryan Robson to me i think this - one of the dirtiest central midfielders ever, however he somehow created this "gentleman" image and most of what he did, often went unnoticed because of it.

Like most things in life, don't do them to excess and respect the people around you as much as you possibly can.

I like that point. Its a good one. I was speaking in general terms about all the so called mouths. Hellmuth, 9 times WSOP bracelet winner. As for Tony G, I don't know, perhaps someone else can speak for him? Maybe you're right and he hasn't amounted to anything.



You could probably liken that to some other poker players who mouth off accross the tables on a daily basis but yet do not get the crusifixion Tony G is gettin here simply becuase this happened to be the final table of a major event? I'm not trying to stick up for the boy, but someone needs to play devils advocate because this is very one sided tbh.

When you get the luxury to watch a genius at work and for 95% of the time they are on your tv, you are spellbound. It kind of makes up (wrongly or rightly) for the flaws in their character. In most cases of a genius, there is a subsequent flaw in their character. Its a bit like our maker says "i'm gonna give you an amazing talent at this sport, however because of this a flaw will have to be created in your character also, as i just can't make you that perfect. Prime examples:

George Best
Eric Cantona
Alex Higgins
John McEnroe
Jimmy White
Zinedine Zidane
Diego Maradona
Ronnie O'Sullivan

The list could go on. My main point is when we remember these people, they are recalled for their amazing talent and their flaw is the afterthought i.e. when we think of George Best, we think of him as a great footballer who had a serious drink problem and NOT as a piss artist who was great at football.

Now when I think of Tony G, i think of loud mouth with no respect (on quite a few occasions) who plays poker.

Sometimes in sport/entertainment you get people who try to fill the "bad boy" label, this is often due to them not being good enough at what they do, so they need the notoriety from a different angle.

Bad boys of poker WPT event was the best yet...It's good to have characters in the game weather you agree with their antics or not.

Whilst I partially agree with the jist of what you are saying, I think again it boils down to personal opinion.

Lets go through your list:

George Best
Gifted on the field, however the only thing I really remember is how he royally fked up his life.

Eric Cantona
Two bit centre forward who did nothing in france, nothing at leeds and played for a central england based team who won lots of championships but had a shed load of championship winning players. Bit of a mouth, mostly remembered for kungfu kicking a fan on the terraces.

Alex Higgins
Class snooker player but too old for me to remember anything but when he nutted someone.

John McEnroe
You cannot be serious? Played with wooden rackets.

Jimmy White
Always been there, but what did he ever win?

Zinedine Zidane
I like this guy. Class player, one of the worlds best. Stuck up for himself when the going got tough and stuck the nut into an arrogant greasy italian. Beautiful.

Diego Maradona
Greasy argentinian witha drug problem and a fetish for using his hands to hit the football.

Ronnie O'Sullivan
Talented snooker play although bit of a sulker.

Whilst some of these players ARE good enough at what they did, I primarily remember them for what they did off (or on) the field of their chosen sport.

As you say Mikky is all about opinions BUT also about your age group. With sportmen like Best, maybe you missed his footballing career (too young to have seen) and therefore only have the "drink" memory.


Probably an age thing on this more than anything, anyone who watched him in his prime would have been looking forward to the game for days before.


On a footballing front, this guy was a genius. I will never forget his chip on the edge of the box and then putting his hands on his hips lokking round as if to say "did you see that?"


Age thing here again. When he won the world championship, he captured the hearts of millions, when he broke down into tears with his daughter in his hands.


Awesome tennis player who often lost his rag with himself. Guaranteed entertainment.


Jimmy is an exception. Made the final 3 times and should have won it at least once (great Hendry comeback).
For any snooker fan, he was the greatest ever not to win it. Still adored and cheered by fans to this very day. Many fans have him as their hero.


Although what he did looked terrible, deep down many understand it and are quite happy with it, once we realised what had happened. A legend in football.


Two of the most remembered goals in world cup history. A world cup winner. A genius with a football, an absolute pratt on most other things. We wouldn't know about him had it not been for his footballing prowess.


Talented? talented? oh come on, this guy is more than likely the most gifted sportsman to have ever walked the planet. This guy is in the top 3 in the world when he plays left handed. Watching this guy play snooker is like poetry, not snooker. One of the best ever sporting talents without doubt.


"Good enough at what they did" is lame Mikky. These guys had you on the edge of your seat if you liked their sport. The word "good" and these guys does not mix, these were geniuses in their day. Millions of people wanted to be these people and replicate what they do. There were icons and operated at the very pinnacle of their sport.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao


I do not deny he is entertaining, he is just that. I do however believe he is no gent!

[/quote]

Like Beckham, he certainly did have his moments... but IMO overrated because he wore the red jersey of Man U.

[/quote]

I remember the 1982 tourney when he won it (was it 82?), I was 5 so not old enough to apprieciate.

[/quote]

I do remember him playing. It was guaranteed entertainment but there where better players who played like gentlemen because they had the skills to do so ;)

[/quote]

Yep, never won though. He should have wiped the floor with that pizza faced scottish git but instead he got his cockney ass whooped :|

[/quote]

Its a one off incident too, he wasnt really known for being a bad boy. Came from a bad area though...

[/quote]

Only two things I remember of this guy. Punching the ball into the net to cheat England out of World Cup Glory in 1986 and having a cocaine problem. Not a nice guy, and a cheat and a liar.

[/quote]

O'Sullivan, yes, Zinedine, yes. The rest of them where also rans or one particular overweight overpaid illicit drug abusing argentinian cheat.

Getting back to the Tony G discussion  ::) , I dont like the guy, but i dont hate him either. Got basically three comments.

1. Like someone said, much much worse goes on up and down the country at poker clubs. This doesnt make it right granted but it should be taken into consideration. We also dont know his relationship with Surindar, is it possibly stronger than what we know and is that why Surindar was basically able to ignore most of it? We all know we can say certain things to mates we wouldnt say to strangers. Who knows? The fact that Surindar doesnt hold a grudge against him is one of the reasons i wont hold it against him.

2. We have seen a change in football over the last few years. Yeah, back in the 60's, 70's it was tough and people did try to provoke the opposition(dont tell me trying to kick someone ten foot in the air isnt trying to upset them!) but the style of it has changed over the last 10 or so years. Its much more underhanded as we saw with Materazzi. Is this just another case of trying to put someone on tilt (we have all done it) which went slightly too far? Come on he has apologised for it.

3. Is it possible a cultural thing as well? Again, this doesnt make it right, but in Australia winning is everything and what ever they can do, within the rules, they believe is ok. At cricket, the austrailians really wind up the english at the stump, but because it isnt broadcast audioly (is that a word?) then no one seems to care, but we know it goes on. Is this him just taking the rules to the extreme?

I know he has done wrong but he has apologised, Surindar doesnt hold a grudge and if DC requested that he became a part of Blonde for a while, he obviously holds him in high esteem. I think its better to look at the way he behaved as an example of how not to behave, but i dont think the guy should be crucified the way he seems to be on here. Just my two cents.

Cantona overrated - lazy defensively, never did f'all in Europe. No surprise Utd won the Champions League after he retired. People talk about overhyped English layers in Europe well this guy wasn't English but fits every other criteria for that category.

Jimmy White made 6 World Snooker finals and won every other event there was to win.

Anyway - that's stuff for the spots board! lol

From the FAQ page on Tony G's website.

Q. Does TonyGPoker have a code of conduct?

A: Yes. All players are expected to behave as good poker citizens and treat all others with respect.....Targeting other players to distress or embarrass them is harassment and will not be permitted.

:)

this is getting way off topic, but i cant let this one pass -

So you are saying that a player in a team sport shuold be measured by what he wins (in terms of the top prize), but an individual sportsman should not ?thats beat me...

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

Wow, some great sports people torn to shreads on here.  Not sure how it got to the likes of Cantona, etc.

Opinions, right or wrong, make the world go around.

However, Judge not that ye be not judged.