blonde poker forum

Chaps, im not sure whether this is gonna go down well, but im a little concerned at the way threads/posts are being ammended/deleted.

To delete a thread is one thing, to change someones words to suit you is quite another, when Redsimon posted in the "Kids" thread he didnt mean to type BRATS, it wasnt a spelling mistake, he meant to type what he actually typed.

If you are going to censor someone, can you do it with **** rather than change the wording completely, as you did in the billy hills thread with Diceman and Ariston.

What really worries me is the fact that people are getting the impression that this forum is becoming a "CLIQUE" and i have been told that by quite a few people both in online and off net discussions.

We have a fantastic place here, and I am very proud of it, I like to tell people about it and "big it up" to people every chance i get. I know its difficult to police and Im not having a pop at anyone, just voicing my concern that we keep things in the spirit that the forum was intended to stand for, and dont discriminate in who/what we find offensive.

 

kev i altered the wording as the thread was getting a little bit heated and by changing the wording i could take the heat out of the thread without changing the nature of the post, if i had put **** as in the william hills thread i feel that the heats wouldnt have gone down so quickly

i had thought about the post for 10 minutes before deciding what to do as well as listening to others points of view
i dont feel redsimon meant to cause the offence that using that particular word caused and i may be wrong but feel he would be happy with the word brat being used as a subsitute

Ironside, you know I have the greatest respect for you and your integrity, but Im with Kev, up to a point, I think you should remove anything you deem to be offensive, its a horrible job but someone has to do it

I just think that changing someones words means we have your opinion of what they meant to say, and I for one would object to it

Please please take this post in the spirit that was intended

no problem

i made the alteration as the post i didnt feel was meant to be offensive as it could have been read

i also felt that his view was a valid view (and one that my parents hold and i disagree with)

i could have left the post intact and the thread could of disintergrated into something you would find on other forum

if i had deleted the thread it would be classed as censorship

if redsimon feels i have alter the meaning of his post by altering that word i can go back and delete the post if that is what is prefered by blondites but personally i feel changing the word allowed redsimon to get  his point accross without it seeming so offensive

I believe there is too much fear about having a heated debate.

IMHO it should be kept simple.

-- If someone is abusive, the post is removed.

When alls said and done this is a moderated forum so the moderators have the right to change posts..maybe ***** would have been better...Thats my last word on the matter :-\

i dont fear debate but i fear debate turning into pointless fighting

and unless i am asked otherwise i will try and keep debates as debates

giving everyone a chance to air there view without any fighting

For what it's worth, and I'm NOT joking - I am HIGHLY offended about what we were called.

And I also thank those Blondites that jumped to my defence.

putting in ***** would still leave the person ivolved feeling insulted and i feel that changing the word didnt lessen your point but it was less insulting

if you feel it changed your message as to have not gotten your point accross just let me know

Ironside hun, leave it be, he made his point perfectly clear.

You know me well enough to know by now that if that had been said anywhere but here, all hell would be breaking loose right now.  I respect this site and it's players, I will try to say nothing more about his disgusting insult, but it WON'T be forgotten.

trace i changed the word t**t to brat as i felt this was less offensive but if redsimon feels i have alter the meaning of his post by this i will have to remedy this as i am not here to put words into peoples mouths

Well I dont agree, I would not mind at all if one of my posts was deemed to be offensive and removed, in fact I would remove it myself and apologise if asked

But if my words were changed I would be very annoyed, how can someone else know what I want to say?

But kudos again to Ironside for listening to my criticism and putting his side of the argument in a reasonable way

That is proper debate

Your a big man Iron, I might not always agree with you, but I would never doubt your good intentions

Same here.

With the ever-increasing number of members, such a situation is bound to crop up again. Therefore I feel it is vital that the matter is cleared up asap and everything made crystal clear.

when i first read simons post i laughed as he sounded like my mum (apart from my mum would never say t**t when tracet reacted i reread simons posts and thought about it then a few other blondites reacted and i got a couple of pm's i understood where both sides of this debate was coming from and i felt that simon didnt intentionaly post with the intention of causing offence, by changing the word to **** left it open to a choice of alot of words including some that were much more offensive by deleting the post i felt i would be deleting a view that has the right to be aired and as i felt it was set out to be offensive i had to edit it in a way as to bring accross the intended meaning without offending, if i had felt the post was meant as an out and out attack then of course i would have deleted the post.

to err is human but to really fouls things up it takes an ironside, i have contacted tikay for advice on this matter but he is in the middle of the sheffiled festival he was of the view that the word wasnt in the keeping of blonde and he also feels that simon isnt the sort to offended for the sake of it he will contact me during the break and i will go into more detail and express your views

Coming from someone who works in online communities for a living, one of the things I stamp firmly into the minds of the moderators I manage, is that posters should attack the posting and NEVER the poster.

Whilst healthy debate is good, once it degrades into insults, then posts should be deleted and education about what is and what isn't acceptable should be imparted to all.

It's easy to forget that all those little names on the sides of postings aren't people, with emotions, but they are, and just because you are only looking at letters on a screen, it doesn't mean that those letters can't hurt.

You shouldn't say anything to someone on a forum you wouldn't be prepared to say to their face in a pub, that's how I live my online life :)

Ironside, it's never easy being a moderator, you are always going to upset someone if you have to remove something - but if what you do makes 20 odd people happy and one person upset then to quote Star Trek (Heid = uber geek) "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one".

I for one don't feel this forum is cliquey at all - it's very vibrant, lots of fun, and informative, and I felt very welcomed  into it's bosom.

Probs haven't helped, but if I can be of use, PM me, even if it is just someone to talk to about stuff :)

Heid
xx

Also (see you have me gabbing on now), remember that the word in question has lots of different meanings depending on where you are in the UK, and is an innocuous insult in some places right up to a terrible word that you shouldn't ever say.

Heid
PS Try me on slang, I spent 3 months trying to teach the yanks the sublety of British slang - ever tried to explain "follow through" to someone from Midwest USA?

Just out of curiosity, does any1 find the ability to modify your own posts slightly unsettling?

the fact it says under the post that you modified it i feel its ok

it allows you to alter typing errors etc etc without the abilty to change the whole meaning of a post to make others looks fools who have replied to you as readers can see you have edited the post AFTER the reply

Just out of curiosity Ironside, how come you did not ask Redsimon to modify his own post ?

This is one of the things I have been felt has developed over the last couple of months. I have no issues with debating/argueing/disagreeing with anybody but when it becomes a case of the same old faces supporting eachother with name calling or attempting to collectively shout someone down it just reinforces the impression of a clique. As a result you get people critising you for certain statements yet justify there own with support of others when you hightlight that they infact acted in such a manner previously. The clique often turn threads into nothing but gloryfied chat rooms and this (imo) intimidates some people and stops from posting. This maybe a reason for why we have so many silent members. I just decided I would go the other way and come out swinging. This is at the end of the day an open forum and not a closed "clique" community, or is it???

I must say that I thought Ironside was very diplomatic earlier and handled the situation rather well, and this from the person who was very critical of him when he deleted Syrflop's thread when I felt only some off it needed to be censored. Guess it all part of the learning curve and your never going to get 100% of the people happy whatever you do.

But what it doesnt tell you is what part of the message has been modified, in the point of the offending post on the "Kids" thread, it makes it seem as though people were upset over being called brats, which is clearly not the case.

As others have said, being a moderator is a thankless task and whatever you do is bound to upset someone.... As in anything in life, be it poker rules or football referees, or anything else, all you can look for is consitency and common sense ... and if we talk about it and get an understanding about what is and isnt acceptable then we will get there.

good thinking that man i could of done that and that may of been a better option

while i was thinking about the post the thread was disintergrating and posts were coming in at a rapid rate including PM's i was also in a stt with 4 players left (remember i do this for love not money)

Just out of curiosity Ironside, how come you did not ask Redsimon to modify his own post ?

Such a tricky subject when something that is offensive to one, is inoffensive to another. Yet we're depending on one man to act on behalf of the masses. Poor Ironside. I agree with the previous post who said you dealt with it pretty darn well.

in the thread i modified of simons i clearly pointed out where i modified it when i modified it this was becasue i could see that by modifing it i would alter the tone of the posts below it

so are you saying that you modified it  ;D

ask me one on sport i have a chance with that

ok ... how come all you Jocks havent baited me on Englands performance against denmark ?

was there any need

apart from that most of are too busy

And heres me thinking that all the Jocks just accept that however bad england played, they and our reserves (Republic of Ireland) and our "C" team(northern Ireland) were still better than your mob of sorry skirt wearers ;)

I've managed a lot of web forums and email-list. A few things have helped over the years:

• I've learnt from bitter experience that changing people's words is absolutely not the way to go.
• Instead replace their post with the words POST_DELETED by mod, and leave it as a message, pm'ing the user if its just a mistake on their behalf.
  
  
• nor is deleting the thread often helpful. If things go down hill, lock the thread. Its precense indicates to people what will and will not be tolerated and there is no confusion.
  

Simple things like that really help, showing the mod's authority without causing any animosity.

jammer out.

I move the offending post out of the thread (using a feature of the forum software i run) and into a seperate (hidden) forum, sending the user a PM if there is a special reason for moving it or if it is new. (Most people know when they are posting something that is liable to be deleted and so aren't confused). This helps the smooth running of my board because it allows other moderators to see the offending posts and see why they were moved and who is causing trouble. It's certainly easier than waking up in the morning to lots of complaints about things being deleted and not being able to answer why.

Also being a moderator is not something i particulary enjoy as it's a pretty thankless task and everything you do will be thought of as wrong by someone. On that note i'd like to thank Ironside for stepping up to the plate.

Go out for a night, and all hell breaks loose.

My two penneth...try not to change someone's words and instead Delete the offending material leaving a blank space, but it's a thankless task and what is right in some eyes is a mistake to others

On the point of cliques, I am a bit surprised. 1000 or so members including many with 50 posts or more and one of the most welcoming places on the net

Some people have said to me they would post more if some of the topics did not ramble and there was more poker. But to a lot of people the "chat room" type aspects are the fun in addition to the poker

Lets not forget that the "Kids" thread started with one of the funniest posts I will ever read that had everyone in my office staring at me like I was a complete nutter, such was my mirth.

 What we are really facing here is the growing pains of a rapidly expanding community with a lot of strident voices. 

And I'd like to thank Ironside, who I've never met or even spoken too (so I'm not in that clique), for what I can tell is a lot of hard work he puts in to help the Blonde team

 

Agree wholeheartedly, having run online communities myself. However, never delete the post. Lock it, or if it gets too bad then move it to a private moderator only forum with no public access. Deleting the post deletes any evidence for the future should further action be needed.

Yesterday I quite intentionally did not post anything on this subject. Not entirely sure of the reason but probably because it was a delicate subject and, one of the very few people that I respect in this world (Mr Kendall), is part owner and a very good friend of mine. Upon reflection, I dont think that should affect my thoughts on the matter (and I do not think Tony would want it to).

My comments now are NOT in relation to that  particular post(I have actually not read it) but posts in general.

I do not agree with changing a post. It is a forum and as such people state their views on a whole selection of subjects. Of course all of this has to be within reason. As we are grown ups, there will be times when we get close to the line, and we know when that is. I do not however think that line should be crossed. If it is, then I believe Ironside (or A.N. Other) should take the appropriate action and delete the post. None of us want the forum turning into a mass of abuse and spam. This forum IS different to most, I am sure we all want it to stay that way. As with anything, the bigger it gets, the harder it will be to moderate, our thoughts (as a group) become more diverse and the chance of people becoming offended also increases.

I think it is good that we are having this discussion and maybe it will make people give a little thought to any posts they make (or edit) before doing so. It has changed and will continue to do so. I remember milestones such as the 10th person to register, how happy I was when the 100th person registered, now a thousand. Where will it stop!

One final thing, lets remeber also that when Ironside did amend that post, it was with the best intentions to help protect a place that has almost become home to many of us.

That word where i am from is not really that bad. To see **** would make me think it was the C word or the F word before any other word so would be much worse.
Not sure if Brats works but if it was highlighted as a mod then fine otherwise delete the whole thing.

whoever runs the forum no doubt has control over the language filter and can use that to make replacements -

 i like to see something like "[naughty word. bad poster.]" put in its place....

i wouldnt say the forum was clique (although noone really has) as a member of casino staff soem forums can be very funny with this as theya re seen as for the players, also i have noticed the massive number of female members we have here that post frequently which is very different from most other poker forums. the forum is full of characters and its hard to spot new members really (apart from the welcome topics now and again) as theys eem to just jump inot the conversations as they flow.

Forum filters can be somewhat troublesome - one holiday forum where I post for some reason doesn't like the word con<??>, so aircon is always made into gobbledygook.

Plus the associated problems for people that live in Scunthorpe, or Peniston.

I think we are all adults, and should be able to behave, if we can't we should have out posts deleted, or at least have the posts moved to a holding pen.

I used to operate a forum where I could move posters into a playpen, and they could only post there, and that worked quite well, but it wasn't anywhere near as good natured a place as here :)

Heid
xx

Ayya, I have been DREADING reading this one. OK, here we go, but firstly, bear in mind I have not seen the "KIDS" thread yet, and I have not seen the post which caused the problems. But I had a few phone calls on the matter, & so have a sort of idea what it's all about.

Random observations on the matter......

Particularly helpful posts by Heidi & Jammer.

Poor Ironside - he offers to help out free of charge, & gets it in the neck. I HAVE to support him, be he right or wrong.

5 more moderators will be appointed before the 1st of Spetember. Then they can carry the load in a more equitable manner.

The word that was used is, to my mind, quite acceptable in some parts of the UK, particularly in London, but is deeply offensive elsewhere. in blonde terms, it's not acceptable.

With hindsight - I repeat - WITH HINDSIGHT - I incline to the view that amending words is a bit iffy. But Ironside felt AT THE TIME that was the best way to deal with the prob. When he called me, he was clearly very upset that he may have done something very wrong. That alone saddened me.

Redsimon. A long time friend, and a guy who has had THE most horrendous health probs the last 6 months. I cant be cross with him - he's NOT a malicious man, he not a vindictive man, he's a gent, but he made a serious error of judgement on this occasion. He was wrong, but let's not hang him for a first offence. He IS a good man, trust me. There but for the Grace of God.....We have all done things we regret fom time to time.

Trace T. OMG, I am SO sorry Trace. You have been a blondeites-ess for a few months, & have bought a new dimension to blonde, with your cranky style & willingness to give it out, & take it on the chin. On behalf of blonde, please accept our apologies - it should not have happened. Trace has become "family" in near-record time. Lets keep it that way.

The forum has become "cliquey"? Members & posts are increasing at a jaw dropping rate. It is what folks want it to be, it is what it is. We shall fight night and day to keep it that way, & if that brings accusations of being cliquey, so be it.

It has a higher ratio of Lady members than other Forums. Good. They feel safer here, & we must ensure they continue to feel that way. And if the adolescent children happen upon blonde, they will not see anything their parents would not wish them to see.

Our "ideal" for blonde is to be a fun place to visit. Poker - & other stuff - with a smile. With decent standards & morality. No flaming, no personal sledging.  Not everyone's cup of tea, but the folks that like that sorta thing, will enjoy being here. And those that don't, well, they will move on. Dissenssion & argument is fine, but let's keep it civil.

OK, there you have it. Not the best of weeks on blonde, but out of adversity comes stength.

And one last thing. "dont let the sun go down on your anger" was a fave saying of my Dad. He was right. And that's the way it seems to have worked out, theres been a bit of heat, but everyone sorted it out amongst themselves.

Thanks for the oportunity to debate it Kev.

OK, I'm off to find the thread that started it all....,!

Strangely enough I would suggest that the day of that particular post was one of the best days on blonde. It erupted in so many ways.

The kids thread was hilarious with a bit of a problem in the middle, but the stories were magnificent. Even my quick contribution caused a complimentary word from the comic master that is RED-DOG, so I felt good, sad eh!??

The "Lost" thread came in from nowhere, totally non-poker related but seemed to have related to so many people, and that alone caused lengthy debate about copyright etc. All good fun and educational.

The lost twins of RED-DOG and the poll was just incredible. I had tears in my eyes it was so funny.

During the RED-DOG picture gallery building we find he and ironside are on line and doing rather well so the next intant the RED-DOG fan club appears in the text box at Ladbrokes willing him on to the end, ironside hit his final table and we had that match updated in tandam, the communal spirit was fantastic and warming to see.

In light of all that we have to accept that a thorn or two will appear in our rose garden and just cope with it but just remember what we have here, on the whole is pretty good.

Thank you Tony.   :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*