blonde poker forum

this incident happened lastnight and there was uproar,a few of my m8s have asked for blondes opinion............

last five at final table blinds are 1k  2k
£5k pot
player 1 pass
player 2 pass
player 3 pass
small blind raises 4k to play
big blind re-raise to 10k

now here we go small blind dwells for a long time ,THEN SAYS WELL IF YOU GOT KINGS OR ACES GOOD LUCK TO YOU ,IM ALL IN,
THE BIG BLIND THEN DWELLS FOR A WHILE  and says if you aint got queens your SCUM, waits for a long time,  and then calls
the small blind turns over a clubs 10 clubs
the big blind turns over 10 10 (good call in my opinion)
the big blind then says your scum ,even lower than scum for doing that,
the flop brings 0 0 0 turn ace river ace

the small blind have said when they go on there backs great call m8,the big blind gives him a few bad words

theses 2 players are very well known in the country ,they are both my m8s,
and everyone in the casino was saying its ok to table talk how the small blind did,
but there were a few people saying that it was wrong to do what he did ,so i said i would post it on here for a few other opinions,,,,,

in my opinon i like table talk, but this i think is a bit close to the bone and i cant decide who to agree with,
these 2 players are very very well known to the whole poker comunity in the uk and europe and even vegas,theses guys are very good players too so they do know the score, 

give us your views please
theres a bad taste in our casino help us see the light ,lol thanks james 

the language used by both SB and BB was completely inappropriate and against the spirit in which I think the game should be played

I would like to see effective TD's deal with such intimidation harshly by means of "sit out" penalties and warnings re bans if it persists

i really don't see what all the fuss is about - poker is a game of deception (amongst other things) and it's all part of the game imo.  I personally think you should be able to say whatever you want to win the hand (with exception of abuse), tell him your hand whether real or not, just chat away... makes it more fun!  I love that side of the game.  Otherwise, where exactly do you draw the line - you end up with situations like this where there can be no clear ruling...

just like to add that the BB being offensive is out of order, but I don't think what the SB said was unreasonable at all... he wished the guy luck if he had AA or KK.... doesn't mean he has to have QQ does it?

for me it's all about the tone. if they laughingly clearly jokingly with a shake of the head say "If you don't have QQ you're scum" then there's no problem for me. If it is done in a threatening "I'll have your ass later" sort of way then BB is bang out of order.

SB is doing nothing wrong of course...and if BB isn't joking when he says his "few choice words" or "you're evn lower than scum for doing that" he's out of order.

I personally don't like table talk but there's nothing wrong with friendly banter.

I think Rivered has got it right. The SB hasn't done anything wrong, just used a bit of chat to influence the outcome, and abuse shouldn't be accepted so the BB is in the wrong.

Personally I don't think that there was anything wrong with the "trash-talking".

The "moody" rule has been obsolete for a couple of years now in most casinos, so "moody" goes.

I'm certainly not in favour of threatening behavour, but IMO no rules have been broken.

I agree with this sentiment, but if the local rule is that you should not declare your hand then the small blind has broken this rule and in fact cheated.  He clearly indicated (there is no way his statement could be interpreted in any other way by an experienced opponent) that he had QQ and this was untrue.  I can certainly understand why the BB was annoyed.

Another point - in a tournament if a player states he has AA and another player folds - this obviously affects all other participants.

Calling someone scum is just common.  If you can't think of anything better to say, just say nothing.  Why open your mouth and look like a idiot.  I don't mind the odd bit of table banter providing it's not just a direct insult, no class.

Common as mook in my opinion.

I'd love to know who these very very well known players are.

Sounds like the stuff of £5 rebuys to me.

But he didn't actually declare his hand, another player should realise the difference and act accordingly, which in this case he did. The Aces were hit but the player implying he had QQ didn't stop the call in the first place.

If you ask hundred exprienced players what they took to be the meaning behind the statement "if you have AA or KK, good luck to you" they would unanimously say - the player is saying he has QQ.  There is no point in debating that.

james,

you I both know that a bit of verbal deception happens all the time - and the players involved both know this.... Your use of the "oh is there a flush out- I didnt notice" when betting a checked river is a case in point!!! (that I fell for it still hurts lol).

Mr moves is right- sb didnt declare his hand if he had it would have been void and would have been ruled as such.

If the BB felt that the sb definately had qq then it was a poor call, something told him that there may be some deception going on- ie prior knowledge/ common practice etc- so why be suprised?
Poker is a game of deception, speech play as such is not against the rules and in IMHO adds to the game as long as it is not abusive.

calling someone scum, and then "a few bad words" when told good call is not acceptable. In extreme cames it can lead to unpleasantness or worse(as when we had a guy banned for fighting an opponent after he had been publically humiliated and abused on a Final table the previous week). BB was out of order.

I for one would like to see a sin bin for this ( and other blatent rule infringements) implimented ( and enforced equally at each tournament in Cardiff and in other grovesnor casinos). I feel consistant interpretation and implementation would go a long way in ridding tables of unpleasentness).

Personal insults (and I dont mean things like "how the f**k can you call with that junk", you know the sort of insults I mean) and offensive speach is generally bad for the game.... I dont mind "foul" language but other people do and so you should think of others when using such language unintentionally.

Theres nothing wrong with speach play however.... Deceptive, yes. Wrong, not really.

Very Much Dislike speech play, as some players do not know where to draw the line.

I am with Tighty on this one.

Not saying I like it myself, and this one does come close to declaring your hand. If the rules of the casino disallow it then the rules should be obeyed.

But theres nothing wrong with it generally speaking. I'm not innocent to the occasional "ooh well someones got to bet it" when flopping the nut flush on a checked board when the 4 flush lands on the river......

I would still stick with:

1. Deception by lying - crossing the line
2. Deception by implying - fine

Took me ages to come up with that   :D 8)

I allso agree with tighty on this one on my first visit to notts gala there was a guy on my table that just kept annoying everyone on our table by name calling and stuff a bit to harsh to say and when i checked on the bb with j 2 and the flop cam e 2 2 j and he bet his a j and i raised he pushed i called with a smile on my face he went into one like y the hell didnt you fold that you could have bloody folded i just said unlucky and he left with a face like thunder :)

why is declaring your hand against the rules?

and re the 'announcement', whilst it's pretty clear he was implying he had QQ, he could also have AK - that's also a bit of a dog to KK / AA, but a coin flop against the other big pairs.... just illustrating that you can't define rules around the implication of hands as there aren't many clear cut situations

I'd like to hear from the big opposers as to why they don't like it.  imo it'll bring a nice element in to the game, and if anything it'll give the better players another edge and more of a chance to read their opponents - he says he has AA... does he really?  is he bluffing?  As i said, I think it's all part of the game.  You try to mislead opponents by acting strong when weak, or strong when strong etc etc, why not take it a step further.  what exactly is the harm?  What you clearly can't do is expose the cards, but anything else.... no probs.

 ;iagree;

I never heard Tony G call anyone "scum"!!!!    ;goodvevil;

I am thinking AK here more than QQ. QQ is less worried when its HU!

That could drag up some really old stuff  :D

Even so:

 :goodpost: ;applause;

Its just not very friendly, regardless if they know each other, or if they are heads up
its just wrong

Banter is good for the game, but when it gets trashy I think its time for penalties to be
awarded

I agree with all of that.

i would like to thankyou all for your opinions,you all sound very honest in your views.and RUDDERS is there a flush out there hehe

I think that the two issues are getting confused here.

Surely there can be no penalty for the speech play during the hand, it's allowed.
Any penalty could only be incurred for "ungentlemanly conduct" afterwards.

I always thought the rule in Europe was different to the US on speechplay but obviously not after Tony G's French WPT.
If someone states what hand they have their hand should automatically be dead,"I have a pair, I have a flush etc", whether they have or not, anything implying a hand is ok

just one thing i didnt mention was after the hand there was a bit of rowdiness but to be fair to the small blind i didnt think he said anything untoward but as he was trying to defend his play by saying he did nothing wrong was sent to the sin bin for 10 min this to be honest in my opinion was a bit harsh,im sure someone will post something else as to what happend later at the final table ,but this had nothing to do with what happened here,totally seprate issue,this thread could go on a bit here .

tighty, i did ask the sb to sit out for 10 after, to cool the siuation down.

The SB?

James

I sent our friend out for 10 minutes to calm the situation down, as our other friend was getting a little heated.  I thought that that was the best thing to do in that situation as the table declined the offer of a topilet break for 5 minutes.  Just tried to take the heat out of the situation, 'cos it went very quiet after that.

yeah he kept on trying to justify his moves to bb, bb asked him not to speak to him, sb continued.

Its easy to call someone scum and then to tell them not to defend themselfs!

The guys got every right to try and qualify to the bb why he isn't scum, and to everyone else that heard.

he's been abused and then penalised for defending himself, i understand what your obligations are but the  SB, it seems to me, has been ruined at every stage since the out set of the hand.

The BB should have been sin binned for the initial harrasment, the sb did nothing wrong, even after the event I would say that the bb was out of order

You are completely naive if you thing the small blind did nothing wrong - he made a comment intended to give information or misinformation about his hand.  This should not be allowed in a tournament because of the possibility of collusion. A cash game is of course completely different.

"Moody" or speech play has been officially allowed in Grosvenor Casinos for well over a year now.

Any form of discussion could then be construed as collusion containing secret codes etc, what your proposing is the exclusion of any form of communication at a poker table which is laughable.

What even goes further to highlighting your inability to comprehend the situation is that you think that it could be LESS open to manipulation in a cash game!! are you for real?

My inability to comprehend the stitation?????

Why should I give a toss in a cash game what 2 players say to each other heads-up?  It doesn't matter to me!

In a tournament final I want players to clash and knock each other out - if they start telling each other their hands, this isn't going to happen. 

And anyway whats wrong with keeping quiet during a hand. Do you lack the self discipline to shut your mouth for 30 secs?

 

The small blind did nothing wrong, all within the rules, why should he suffer?

 ;iagree;

And wouldn't removing the BB for 10 minutes also have diffused the situation and quietened it down?

Absolutely my last post (rant) on this subject.

This thread and some others on this forum pretty well sum-up why tournament poker in the UK is crap and why I rarely bother with it.

No one gives any thought to the fundamental principle behind a rule.

In this case the fundamental principle is that discussions between players should avoid any potentially collusive activity.  Lets look at an example - it's the bubble and you're shortstacked.  Player A raises and player B reraises - player A goes all-in and says "If you've got AA, you're a lucky man" - player B folds and player A shows KK.  They are friends.  I think you could justifiably claim to have been disadvantaged by that speechplay.

On the bubble in a Vienna tournament, I had 2 Danes at my table. Dane 1 raises, Dane 2 reraises Dane 1 thinks and says something to Dane 2 in Danish.  Result 10 minute sinbin.  Correct ruling, because of possible collusion. 

It is not enough to "allow speechplay" - you have to qualify that to avoid collusion or not allow speechplay. 

Tikays thread about the bizarre rule in Luton is another example of not relying on a principle.  In this case the principle is that players should not get an advantage by delaying action or hiding cards.  Somehow the standard rule in place to deal with this has been misunderstood by someone in Grovesnor and twisted into nonsense.

The rule is that you are allowed to talk during a hand, i thought you couldn't name your specific card(s) but all else is fine. You appear to be lobbying for a change in the rule, until that happens then there is no "principle" as you describe it.
Foreign languages in a card room is not permitted in the UK either BTW but that's a different rule again.

albert card room manager>>>i personally think that if a player asks you to tell another player not to talk to him ,this cant be done,as long as he/she is not being rude,as talking is a part of the game to suss out your oponent,the big blind is a very good m8 of mine(so is the small blind too) and i dont want to sound as if im going against him,but i think its maybee 6 off 1 and 7 of the other here, its very close,what the small blind done in my opinon was not wrong ,but we all know how he plays and his chat do go on a bit,but the big blind in my opinion made the call of the century with 10 10 after table talk went on,if small blind said nothing im sure bblind would have passed 10 10 it was just ironic that the board dished out ace ace ,with added salt to a wound which would not close,we all know how experienced the bblind is in the game and at what level he plays at,but as he declared hes never seen talk like this before,but we all do know that THE SMALL BLIND IS A LOONEY WITH HIS MOUTH (lol) but to be honest ive never seen him be rude to a player,he is very good at this.and im sure the big blind will be out for revenge lol,i hope the 2 players can maybee brush issues to one side and still be able to talk about it as im sure their games will help each other in the future.they are both very good players and im sure that they may both see the light and think that they both did something close to the bone by hurting each other with there words,once again  thanx for your opinions  JAMES

I don't think u can compare the BB to SB here, SB been playing 5 minutes and BB has proven he is a top player. So Sofa king stop talking nonsense....
Maybe more to the poing should be the fact that 2 brothers play together in the same tournaments all the time and thay HARDLY ever contaet each others hands....
Maybe this should be looked at?
What do u think about this Albert??

spelling not as good as my poker sorry!!

as to say im talking nonsence it shouldnt even matter about how long the kid has been playing im my opinion hes a very good player as you know it .it never matters how long you been playing the game its if you know the rules (if there are rules)as to the other coments i was not asked to air this if i was i would have put a seperate post up on this subject,but as to my view about what happend later ,YES it was definateley wrong, but that is a total diffrent topic.

look at jeff masden 21 years old is he no good coz he been playing 5 min?
or any of these  NEW  young players coming through?

maybee you should put a post up on what happend later on ?
and we can say something about how you word it
coz i worded this on how it happend.
and told the FULL TRUTH............this is my last post on this subject as it is dragging on a bit now thanks for all comments james...

Im making comments from people who where playing at the final table tues night.
I do not know exactly what went on im sorry.
But as for SB he has been playing 5 minutes and he is a fish!
But thinks he's Phil Ivey mind!
He will have to stop talking on the table as im sure someone will sort him out soon out side the casino.

Lets just forget about it. It's gone im sure everything will sort itself out in due course.
Ammanford boy who are you and whats your name?
Jack

so ammanfordboy i would like to know if the five min fish small blind is really a fish what kind of fish does that make you . because the five min fish small blind we talking about has just finished in the top 3oo in the WSOP this year and aiso picked up 80 k in 28 weeks of his five min fish poker career . so ammanford boy what category fish does that put you in ?   or is there just a bit of jelousy going on because this kid is really a good player?

James, you have done a cracking job in recruiting more welsh poker players to this site, think of a similar thread next week and we will have more taffs than jocks  :D  :)up

AMMANFORD BOY been wanting to knock him out for the last six months too..

 ALSO MY MATE FINISHED 25Oth IN THE LONDON MARATHON AND DOESNT SAY A WORD

ABOUT IT..

THE 5 MINUTE FISH CAME 300 IN WORLD SERIES AND HE IS LETTING THE WHOLE WORLD 

KNOW ABOUT IT....



                                                  cheers ......... carl

dewi im begining to wish i said nothing m8,sometimes the truth hurts and when someone gives thier OWN honest opinion its sometimes not liked ,but anyway,it is starting to go on a bit now and id like to think that i gave a true account of what happened,cheers m8 

more for blonde yeeehaaaaaaaaa