WE NEED OPINIONS (murder at our casino)

[sofa----king]

this incident happened lastnight and there was uproar,a few of my m8s have asked for blondes opinion............

last five at final table blinds are 1k  2k
£5k pot
player 1 pass
player 2 pass
player 3 pass
small blind raises 4k to play
big blind re-raise to 10k

now here we go small blind dwells for a long time ,THEN SAYS WELL IF YOU GOT KINGS OR ACES GOOD LUCK TO YOU ,IM ALL IN,
THE BIG BLIND THEN DWELLS FOR A WHILE  and says if you aint got queens your SCUM, waits for a long time,  and then calls
the small blind turns over a clubs 10 clubs
the big blind turns over 10 10 (good call in my opinion)
the big blind then says your scum ,even lower than scum for doing that,
the flop brings 0 0 0 turn ace river ace

the small blind have said when they go on there backs great call m8,the big blind gives him a few bad words

theses 2 players are very well known in the country ,they are both my m8s,
and everyone in the casino was saying its ok to table talk how the small blind did,
but there were a few people saying that it was wrong to do what he did ,so i said i would post it on here for a few other opinions,,,,,

in my opinon i like table talk, but this i think is a bit close to the bone and i cant decide who to agree with,
these 2 players are very very well known to the whole poker comunity in the uk and europe and even vegas,theses guys are very good players too so they do know the score, 

give us your views please
theres a bad taste in our casino help us see the light ,lol thanks james 

[TightEnd]

the language used by both SB and BB was completely inappropriate and against the spirit in which I think the game should be played

I would like to see effective TD's deal with such intimidation harshly by means of "sit out" penalties and warnings re bans if it persists

[rivered]

i really don't see what all the fuss is about - poker is a game of deception (amongst other things) and it's all part of the game imo.  I personally think you should be able to say whatever you want to win the hand (with exception of abuse), tell him your hand whether real or not, just chat away... makes it more fun!  I love that side of the game.  Otherwise, where exactly do you draw the line - you end up with situations like this where there can be no clear ruling...

[rivered]

just like to add that the BB being offensive is out of order, but I don't think what the SB said was unreasonable at all... he wished the guy luck if he had AA or KK.... doesn't mean he has to have QQ does it?

[boldie]

just like to add that the BB being offensive is out of order, but I don't think what the SB said was unreasonable at all... he wished the guy luck if he had AA or KK.... doesn't mean he has to have QQ does it?

for me it's all about the tone. if they laughingly clearly jokingly with a shake of the head say "If you don't have QQ you're scum" then there's no problem for me. If it is done in a threatening "I'll have your ass later" sort of way then BB is bang out of order.

SB is doing nothing wrong of course...and if BB isn't joking when he says his "few choice words" or "you're evn lower than scum for doing that" he's out of order.

I personally don't like table talk but there's nothing wrong with friendly banter.

[Jon MW]

I think Rivered has got it right. The SB hasn't done anything wrong, just used a bit of chat to influence the outcome, and abuse shouldn't be accepted so the BB is in the wrong.

[Karabiner]

Personally I don't think that there was anything wrong with the "trash-talking".

The "moody" rule has been obsolete for a couple of years now in most casinos, so "moody" goes.

I'm certainly not in favour of threatening behavour, but IMO no rules have been broken.

[doubleup]

i really don't see what all the fuss is about - poker is a game of deception (amongst other things) and it's all part of the game imo.  I personally think you should be able to say whatever you want to win the hand (with exception of abuse), tell him your hand whether real or not, just chat away... makes it more fun!  I love that side of the game.  Otherwise, where exactly do you draw the line - you end up with situations like this where there can be no clear ruling...

I agree with this sentiment, but if the local rule is that you should not declare your hand then the small blind has broken this rule and in fact cheated.  He clearly indicated (there is no way his statement could be interpreted in any other way by an experienced opponent) that he had QQ and this was untrue.  I can certainly understand why the BB was annoyed.

Another point - in a tournament if a player states he has AA and another player folds - this obviously affects all other participants.

[Graham C]

Calling someone scum is just common.  If you can't think of anything better to say, just say nothing.  Why open your mouth and look like a idiot.  I don't mind the odd bit of table banter providing it's not just a direct insult, no class.

Common as mook in my opinion.

[MrMoves]

I'd love to know who these very very well known players are.

Sounds like the stuff of £5 rebuys to me.

[Jon MW]

i really don't see what all the fuss is about - poker is a game of deception (amongst other things) and it's all part of the game imo.  I personally think you should be able to say whatever you want to win the hand (with exception of abuse), tell him your hand whether real or not, just chat away... makes it more fun!  I love that side of the game.  Otherwise, where exactly do you draw the line - you end up with situations like this where there can be no clear ruling...

I agree with this sentiment, but if the local rule is that you should not declare your hand then the small blind has broken this rule and in fact cheated.  He clearly indicated (there is no way his statement could be interpreted in any other way by an experienced opponent) that he had QQ and this was untrue.  I can certainly understand why the BB was annoyed.

Another point - in a tournament if a player states he has AA and another player folds - this obviously affects all other participants.

But he didn't actually declare his hand, another player should realise the difference and act accordingly, which in this case he did. The Aces were hit but the player implying he had QQ didn't stop the call in the first place.

[doubleup]

[But he didn't actually declare his hand, another player should realise the difference and act accordingly, which in this case he did. The Aces were hit but the player implying he had QQ didn't stop the call in the first place.

If you ask hundred exprienced players what they took to be the meaning behind the statement "if you have AA or KK, good luck to you" they would unanimously say - the player is saying he has QQ.  There is no point in debating that.

[rudders]

james,

you I both know that a bit of verbal deception happens all the time - and the players involved both know this.... Your use of the "oh is there a flush out- I didnt notice" when betting a checked river is a case in point!!! (that I fell for it still hurts lol).

Mr moves is right- sb didnt declare his hand if he had it would have been void and would have been ruled as such.

If the BB felt that the sb definately had qq then it was a poor call, something told him that there may be some deception going on- ie prior knowledge/ common practice etc- so why be suprised?
Poker is a game of deception, speech play as such is not against the rules and in IMHO adds to the game as long as it is not abusive.

calling someone scum, and then "a few bad words" when told good call is not acceptable. In extreme cames it can lead to unpleasantness or worse(as when we had a guy banned for fighting an opponent after he had been publically humiliated and abused on a Final table the previous week). BB was out of order.

I for one would like to see a sin bin for this ( and other blatent rule infringements) implimented ( and enforced equally at each tournament in Cardiff and in other grovesnor casinos). I feel consistant interpretation and implementation would go a long way in ridding tables of unpleasentness).

[mikkyT]

Personal insults (and I dont mean things like "how the f**k can you call with that junk", you know the sort of insults I mean) and offensive speach is generally bad for the game.... I dont mind "foul" language but other people do and so you should think of others when using such language unintentionally.

Theres nothing wrong with speach play however.... Deceptive, yes. Wrong, not really.

[dik9]

Very Much Dislike speech play, as some players do not know where to draw the line.

I am with Tighty on this one.