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Title: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 12:37:43 PM Hi Guys,
Me and a friend are looking into the possibility of setting up a poker room near to where we live. The place seems perfect as their is a serious amount of Cash in the local area, and gambling is a every day occurence with alot of spare cash floating around. A Poker room would be seriously profitable we believe, but obviously their are guys on here that have 500 times as much know how, and experience in the market. Any help would be greatly appreciated - 1)What licenses would we need , and what sort of cost are we looking at. I have read a few articles regarding poker being allowed in Pubs from September 2007. Is this legislation likely to go through. 2)Premises would be no problem(we think), but with regards to set up costs -i.e Tables (prob 4/5), chips, cards, chairs, what would we be looking at. I have estimated 10k!!!!!! Is this about right. These are prob are 2 most important questions at the mo. Any help would be great Cheers Guys Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: AndrewT on September 21, 2006, 12:52:55 PM For some idea of what it takes to open up a poker room read Rob's thread about DTD - http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0)
Rob is doing everything properly and above board - if you don't want to get a licence you can either do what Roy Houghton is doing, and open a private member's club with high membership fee (and make no money at all directly from the poker) or go down the Gutshot route (illegal under current legislation - though they have a court case coming up in January which I think they hope to use to highlight how silly the current law regarding poker clubs is). From reading your post, if you are planning a 4 or 5 table room because it would be 'seriously profitable' I think if you investigate properly you'll discover otherwise. See also Cincinattis. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: MrMoves on September 21, 2006, 01:03:25 PM I think this market is going to saturate very quickly. Seems like everyone is opening or considering opening a poker club.
I also think you're looking at an investment of millions rather than thousands to do things on any reasonable scale. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: fergus8 on September 21, 2006, 01:05:41 PM id say start small with very low start up and running costs being first priorities. im not sure what property costs but equipment etc get good cheap stuff. no frills, then see where u are in 6 months
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: ACE2M on September 21, 2006, 01:08:36 PM Very dependent on who you want your clientele to be?
There are very specific rules on the rake you can charge etc dependent on what you provide. Gaming board consultation is probably a must before you start as they will come and have a look at you when you open (usually at the request of the nearest casino). Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: tikay on September 21, 2006, 01:08:51 PM To make money? Forget it.
To have a ball? Do it! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: fergus8 on September 21, 2006, 01:10:49 PM get into bed with an online poker site
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: marcro on September 21, 2006, 01:14:02 PM To make money? Forget it. To have a ball? Do it! Agreed - unless you have deep pockets and do not worry about recovering any investment don't do it. £10k will not go very far at all. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: TightEnd on September 21, 2006, 01:15:46 PM the licensing situation is very murky, I'd see the upshot of the Gutshot case before committing any capital into a crowded market
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 01:20:01 PM For some idea of what it takes to open up a poker room read Rob's thread about DTD - http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0) Rob is doing everything properly and above board - if you don't want to get a licence you can either do what Roy Houghton is doing, and open a private member's club with high membership fee (and make no money at all directly from the poker) What Roy Houghton is doing is also illegal. Under the 1967 Gaming Act, private members clubs are permitted to run games of equal chance without registering under the act (avoiding the local authority gaming folk etc) as long as the main purpose of the private members club is not to be running games of equal chance. They can also only charge a certain amount for covering costs of running the game of equal chance, a very small percentage. If they register under the act as a private members club, they are permitted to charge a little bit more for running the game. Roys club is clearly set up for the purpose of playing poker and as such illegal. IMPORTANT BIT: What the Gutshot (and Cincins, Roys club etc) is doing, is actually a grey area with regards to "games of equal chance". Cincins is also a private members club and regardless of having "high membership fees" or not, is also illegal by definintion of the act. However, games of equal chance are covered but poker is not. Why? Well, would you describe poker as a game of equal chance? Granted, some games may be akin to bingo or craps, but in general, poker is a game of skill based upon incomplete information. And therein lies the crux of the Gutshot courtcase which should give the industry a lankmark ruling on the future of other "illegal" clubs. However, it becomes a two edged sword as it means organised crime could (prolly will) make a move into such clubs. The 2007 act will sort much of this out, I believe... Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: byronkincaid on September 21, 2006, 01:21:46 PM My first thought was LOL read the DTD thread but if you read Swimming with the Devilfish or Education of a poker player, you read about people making money out of just having a room with a poker table. Are those days really gone now? Is everyone who used to play in places like this playing in casinos or gutshot style places?
Perhaps there is still room in the market for this kind of small scale poker room? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:23:29 PM Don't bother and keep poker fun!
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: byronkincaid on September 21, 2006, 01:23:56 PM For some idea of what it takes to open up a poker room read Rob's thread about DTD - http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0) Rob is doing everything properly and above board - if you don't want to get a licence you can either do what Roy Houghton is doing, and open a private member's club with high membership fee (and make no money at all directly from the poker) What Roy Houghton is doing is also illegal. Under the 1967 Gaming Act, private members clubs are permitted to run games of equal chance without registering under the act (avoiding the local authority gaming folk etc) as long as the main purpose of the private members club is not to be running games of equal chance. They can also only charge a certain amount for covering costs of running the game of equal chance, a very small percentage. If they register under the act as a private members club, they are permitted to charge a little bit more for running the game. Roys club is clearly set up for the purpose of playing poker and as such illegal. What the Gutshot (and Cincins etc) is doing, is a grey area. Cincins is also a private members club and regardless of having "high membership fees" or not, is also illegal by definintion of the act. IMPORTANT BIT: However, games of equal chance are covered but poker is not. Why? Well, would you describe poker as a game of equal chance? Granted, some games may be akin to bingo or craps, but in general, poker is a game of skill based upon incomplete information. And therein lies the crux of the Gutshot courtcase which should give the industry a lankmark ruling on the future of other "illegal" clubs. However, it becomes a two edged sword as it means organised crime could (prolly will) make a move into such clubs. The 2007 act will sort much of this out, I believe... So Roy's place is illegal but the Gutshot is a grey area? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: bolt pp on September 21, 2006, 01:25:22 PM Don't bother and keep poker fun! Thats what its all about Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 01:26:20 PM The poker club i currently play at cost 10k to set up including all licenses, tables etc.
They are currently charging a rake of 10% upto a maximum of £5 in any hand. So playing 1/2 PL you can win a £500 pot and only pay £5 rake which I think is pretty good. With 2 tables going from 7.30 till 3am they are making a hell of a profit on the rake side. They are paying 2 dealers the minimum wage but obviously tips is boosting their income, and obviously pro dealers give you more hands per hour, as opposed to self dealt. From what I have seen they are making alot of money from the Rake side. Then they are doing both Food and Drink. I know they are making a decent whack currently, but the place we are looking at would exceed these targets hugely we believe. Alot of Americans based around the area, and the area is well known for being a town of Gamblers. THANKS FLUSHY FOR YOUR INFORMATIVE POST Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:29:05 PM The poker club i currently play at cost 10k to set up including all licenses, tables etc. They are currently charging a rake of 10% upto a maximum of £5 in any hand. So playing 1/2 PL you can win a £500 pot and only pay £5 rake which I think is pretty good. With 2 tables going from 7.30 till 3am they are making a hell of a profit on the rake side. They are paying 2 dealers the minimum wage but obviously tips is boosting their income, and obviously pro dealers give you more hands per hour, as opposed to self dealt. From what I have seen they are making alot of money from the Rake side. Then they are doing both Food and Drink. I know they are making a decent whack currently, but the place we are looking at would exceed these targets hugely we believe. Alot of Americans based around the area, and the area is well known for being a town of Gamblers. THANKS FLUSHY FOR YOUR INFORMATIVE POST That place is illegal, what 'licence' do they hold? Rake on a cash game is ilegal in the UK. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 01:32:34 PM My first thought was LOL read the DTD thread but if you read Swimming with the Devilfish or Education of a poker player, you read about people making money out of just having a room with a poker table. Are those days really gone now? Is everyone who used to play in places like this playing in casinos or gutshot style places? Perhaps there is still room in the market for this kind of small scale poker room? So was mine! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: AndrewT on September 21, 2006, 01:33:07 PM Mikky, As I understand it, once you pay your membership fee for Roy's club, there are no further charges of any kind to play poker. No rake, no service charge, no seat hire - nothing. Dealers are not paid. If you pay the membership fee, the club makes exactly the same amount of money from you as if you didn't play poker at all.
Gutshot rakes pots - there is no 'grey area' here, that's illegal. EDIT: Blimey, I'm agreeing with Flushy. Is there some sort of support group I can join to deal with the trauma? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 01:35:40 PM For some idea of what it takes to open up a poker room read Rob's thread about DTD - http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0) Rob is doing everything properly and above board - if you don't want to get a licence you can either do what Roy Houghton is doing, and open a private member's club with high membership fee (and make no money at all directly from the poker) What Roy Houghton is doing is also illegal. Under the 1967 Gaming Act, private members clubs are permitted to run games of equal chance without registering under the act (avoiding the local authority gaming folk etc) as long as the main purpose of the private members club is not to be running games of equal chance. They can also only charge a certain amount for covering costs of running the game of equal chance, a very small percentage. If they register under the act as a private members club, they are permitted to charge a little bit more for running the game. Roys club is clearly set up for the purpose of playing poker and as such illegal. IMPORTANT BIT: What the Gutshot (and Cincins, Roys club etc) is doing, is actually a grey area with regards to "games of equal chance". Cincins is also a private members club and regardless of having "high membership fees" or not, is also illegal by definintion of the act. However, games of equal chance are covered but poker is not. Why? Well, would you describe poker as a game of equal chance? Granted, some games may be akin to bingo or craps, but in general, poker is a game of skill based upon incomplete information. And therein lies the crux of the Gutshot courtcase which should give the industry a lankmark ruling on the future of other "illegal" clubs. However, it becomes a two edged sword as it means organised crime could (prolly will) make a move into such clubs. The 2007 act will sort much of this out, I believe... So Roy's place is illegal but the Gutshot is a grey area? Erm, thats not what I meant! Post editted :) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 01:38:55 PM I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea.
I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 01:39:53 PM Mikky, As I understand it, once you pay your membership fee for Roy's club, there are no further charges of any kind to play poker. No rake, no service charge, no seat hire - nothing. Dealers are not paid. If you pay the membership fee, the club makes exactly the same amount of money from you as if you didn't play poker at all. Gutshot rakes pots - there is no 'grey area' here, that's illegal. EDIT: Blimey, I'm agreeing with Flushy. Is there some sort of support group I can join to deal with the trauma? It doesn't matter - having a private members club purely for the purpose of providing "games of equal chance" is JUST as illegal as raking pots in cash games. Regardless of whether membership has a fee or not. If this was a well established Miners Welfare or local Conservatives Club that had decided to do a regular "poker night" then it would be acceptable under the act. So Roys club sits firmly in the "Gutshot" camp, and must also await the outcome of the court case to find out what it is doing is illegal or not. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 01:43:31 PM I read somewhere that if you class the premises that you rake the tables as your home address, you can get away with it...
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Exorcism on September 21, 2006, 01:44:20 PM Roy Houghton - in his interview with UK Poker News website - says he's been to the Police, the Gaming Commission and the Council to clear the way, presumably using lawyers. If that is not reassurance, then nothing is. But then again, perhaps he'll be done by a one-outer!
His words were: "We've spent a lot of time and trouble going to the Gaming Commission, the City of London, the City of London Police and it's all been done. In other words, we're starting a private members club, the facilities are totally free of charge, we are not taking rake or table money." Link deleted With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:45:19 PM I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea. I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history How do you know gaming officials ok'd the place? Licenced to keep alligators maybe? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: bolt pp on September 21, 2006, 01:46:20 PM I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea. I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history Licenced to keep alligators maybe? Now that would be wicked!!!!! inflict 3 bad beats in a night and get thrown in the pit!!!!!! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 01:48:54 PM THE PLACE I PLAY AT IS A RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS THAT THEY OWN - THEY HAVE GUTTED THE HOUSE COMPLETELY AND SET IT UP AS A POKER CLUB
This would explain if Nem is correct why they charge rake Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: MrMoves on September 21, 2006, 01:49:02 PM Why pay for staff, TD's, etc?
In Vegas, and in operation, were electronic tables. Internet poker without the Internet but, retaining real life interaction as the players were all there. No disputes, no errors, no stacks of chips. A couple of pretty valets, a few plasma screens and away you go. The tables are not cheap, mind. IMO ::) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: AndrewT on September 21, 2006, 01:50:48 PM With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else! If they're promoting it as a general leisure place, maybe they should have picked a different website address... http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/ (http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:53:52 PM Why pay for staff, TD's, etc? In Vegas, and in operation, were electronic tables. Internet poker without the Internet but, retaining real life interaction as the players were all there. No disputes, no errors, no stacks of chips. A couple of pretty valets, a few plasma screens and away you go. The tables are not cheap, mind. IMO ::) You can't buy them either, lease only. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:54:30 PM THE PLACE I PLAY AT IS A RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS THAT THEY OWN - THEY HAVE GUTTED THE HOUSE COMPLETELY AND SET IT UP AS A POKER CLUB This would explain if Nem is correct why they charge rake Then why would they have a licence? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 01:57:14 PM no idea to be honest - all i know is that they are licensed.
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 01:57:44 PM no idea to be honest - all i know is that they are licensed. ;frustrated; Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:03:07 PM With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else! If they're promoting it as a general leisure place, maybe they should have picked a different website address... http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/ (http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/) Okay, I shall pull up the relevant section of the 1967 gaming act (and its amendments for slot machines and national lottery...) Perhaps the relevant gaming commision officials and police have said "we will not interfere, we believe what you are doing is all above board" - common sense prevails. Or perhaps Roy is lying. The same thing is true of the Wabash club, just around the corner from Cincinnatis. They get a visit once a month from the police who make sure everything is okay and there are no problems etc. Cincins got raided most likely because someone snitched about the rake. But the letter of the law is clear. Private members clubs should not be set up purely for the purpose of gaming. Its clear as crystal in the original act, and if local authorities are turning a blind eye due to common sense then fair enough. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: smithy69 on September 21, 2006, 02:05:32 PM I don't have anything to do with the card place, am only relaying facts to you. The why's and where's I dont know. As i said I am just passing on information.
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Exorcism on September 21, 2006, 02:06:38 PM With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else! If they're promoting it as a general leisure place, maybe they should have picked a different website address... http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/ (http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/) You may have a point........ ;topofclass; Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:06:56 PM Quote from: http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/Gambling_racing/gambling_law_until_sept_2007/fact_poker.htm Can poker be run in a private members club? Equal chance gaming can take place in a private members club. The club must have a membership of not less than twenty-five and must be formed for the general benefit of its members and not for commercial gain for the proprietor or any such persons. Gaming must not be the principal purpose for which the club is established or conducted. No bankers' games are allowed. Where the club is registered by the licensing authority they can charge members up to a limit of £2 per day. Clubs that have not registered can only charge 60p per day. Its not the act itself, but it is the official word on the act. When I looked into this last year, I downloaded all the relevant acts and ammendments both for scotland and for engliand & wales but I cant find where I downloaded them :( Registration under the act as a private members club (not for profit!) is a mere £325 pouinds plus a yearly £120 renewal fee. You can operate unlicenced but the restrictions on charges are greater. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Graham C on September 21, 2006, 02:07:52 PM These things always look so simple to do, but they never are. There will be more than this club spending £10k and all of a sudden taking £1k per day - nothing in life is that simple.
Get a syndicate of people together that are interest, set up home games hiring out halls to play in if no one can host them, ship them round a bit if you have to have a bash at this. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 02:12:23 PM Roy Houghton's new club is £93 per quarter
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:12:53 PM Just to flip this up-side its head... From teh same webpage:
Quote What is poker? Poker is a card game involving chance and skill and is therefore classed as gaming under the Gaming Act 1968. Players bet into a communal pot during the course of a hand, and the player holding the best hand at the end of the betting wins the pot. So the gambing officials reconise that poker involves some sort of skill but they are sure that it is still covered under the act. I still beg to differ, until a grey wig wearing toff can determine otherwise. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 02:13:52 PM Which is less than yer average gym membership. (who don't operate poker games)
Every time I go on that treadmill, it's a gamble. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:14:32 PM Roy Houghton's new club is £93 per quarter Fits, if the club is licenced (can't see how though) and member plays every day then he is being charged just over £1 per day. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 02:17:47 PM Mikky, sounds like that website yer on is talking shoite.
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 02:20:10 PM Mikky, sounds like that website yer on is talking shoite. Its a Government website ::) [size=04pt]says it all[/size] Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:22:52 PM Mikky, sounds like that website yer on is talking shoite. Its not talking shite, its quoting from the 1968 gaming act, which I have read but now cannot find. Its a government website and until 2007 the information on it is correct. (Yes, I know the governement doesn't usually have websites which are correct but this one is lol) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: bolt pp on September 21, 2006, 02:26:51 PM Mikky, sounds like that website yer on is talking shoite. Its not talking shite, its quoting from the 1968 gaming act, which I have read but now cannot find. Its a government website and until 2007 the information on it is correct. (Yes, I know the governement doesn't usually have websites which are correct but this one is lol) Because it was repealled(along with the other two main gaming acts) upon implementation of the newest act. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: dik9 on September 21, 2006, 02:28:30 PM For those of you that have read Swimming with the Devilfish, you may know where I do some part time dealing(chapter 7)
It is now probably the cheapest, friendliest, safest, most professionally run game in town, and that is saying something considering the cardrooms around Birmingham. The service charge still stands at £5 an hour, no rake. For that £5 you get unlimited drinks and food and decent dealers. The place itself has always been deemed as illegal, but as the person who runs it, sleeps there and is his residential address. It is classed as a private dweling, and run for the love of it, rather than for profit. I know of gaming officials up and down the country, say to the owners of some private clubs that it is ok, and there is no problems. These "officials" seem to be talking out of their arse, as Mr. Moves says the country is being saturated by illegal cardrooms. IMO the popularity has just got to big for the GC and they have given up trying to regulate. And only act if there is a complaint, especially whilst the Gutshot case is going through. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:33:13 PM Mikky, sounds like that website yer on is talking shoite. Its not talking shite, its quoting from the 1968 gaming act, which I have read but now cannot find. Its a government website and until 2007 the information on it is correct. (Yes, I know the governement doesn't usually have websites which are correct but this one is lol) Because it was repealled(along with the other two main gaming acts) upon implementation of the newest act. It is not repealed until 2007. The Gambling Act 2005 does not come into force until 2007 and therefore the Gaming Act 1968, the lotteries act 19xx and all the other amendments thereof are all still in force. I do know what I am talking about as before I got involved playing at Riverboat and Cincins I was tasked with finding out about setting up a poker game at my local miners welfare and I spent 3 days printing off legislation and downloaded acts and commentaries on acts. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 02:33:27 PM Its not talking shite I was trying to agree with you ffs ::) I still beg to differ. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:34:54 PM Ah ok, missed the underlying humour tankie ;)
BTW those interested in the 2005 act and all its glory can read it here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/20050019.htm Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: dik9 on September 21, 2006, 02:36:50 PM On the Gaming Commissions website, it lists its schedules and dates for legislation and implementation
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:39:12 PM BTW count yourselves lucky that the new act is not yet inforce, because the new act outlines the definition of "game of equal chance" far better than the original one did.
Quote (1) In this Act "gaming" means playing a game of chance for a prize. (2) In this Act "game of chance"- (a) includes- (i) a game that involves both an element of chance and an element of skill, (ii) a game that involves an element of chance that can be eliminated by superlative skill, and (iii) a game that is presented as involving an element of chance, but (b) does not include a sport. (3) For the purposes of this Act a person plays a game of chance if he participates in a game of chance- (a) whether or not there are other participants in the game, and (b) whether or not a computer generates images or data taken to represent the actions of other participants in the game. (4) For the purposes of this Act a person plays a game of chance for a prize- (a) if he plays a game of chance and thereby acquires a chance of winning a prize, and (b) whether or not he risks losing anything at the game. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: bolt pp on September 21, 2006, 02:45:34 PM BTW count yourselves lucky that the new act is not yet inforce, because the new act outlines the definition of "game of equal chance" far better than the original one did. Quote (1) In this Act "gaming" means playing a game of chance for a prize. (2) In this Act "game of chance"- (a) includes- (i) a game that involves both an element of chance and an element of skill, (ii) a game that involves an element of chance that can be eliminated by superlative skill, and (iii) a game that is presented as involving an element of chance, but (b) does not include a sport. (3) For the purposes of this Act a person plays a game of chance if he participates in a game of chance- (a) whether or not there are other participants in the game, and (b) whether or not a computer generates images or data taken to represent the actions of other participants in the game. (4) For the purposes of this Act a person plays a game of chance for a prize- (a) if he plays a game of chance and thereby acquires a chance of winning a prize, and (b) whether or not he risks losing anything at the game. The standing committees charged with refining the intricacies of government legislation sit about drinking brandy for two years then come up with all this crap with about a week to go, a procedure well illustrated here. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 02:49:00 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry.
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 03:02:01 PM Poker is a game of chance and skill. In situations where players have equal skill (or equal lack of skill) it becomes purely a game of chance.
I'm not of the opinion that it's a pure skill game, and should not be treated as such but..... Those guidlines are ridiculous, they don't outline anything at all. Any activity you name, be it badminton, tiddily winks, chess or curling could fall into the "luck and skill" bracket if they so deem. Maybe that's what they want. A green light to bully the fock out of anything that appears in the future. Video piracy is a crime, do not accept it. Demand a genuine cassete from your video store. Poor quality, illegal tapes, reduce your viewing pleasure, and jeapordise future film prouction. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: AndrewT on September 21, 2006, 03:05:18 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry. No problem with me Mikky. Let's face it, you are from Glasgow, after all. :) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 03:09:04 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry. No problem with me Mikky. Let's face it, you are from Glasgow, after all. :) rotflmfao (http://www.thehendonmob.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11213&start=15)<---- Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 03:17:17 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry. No problem with me Mikky. Let's face it, you are from Glasgow, after all. :) I'm from Liverpool. I just happen to live amongst these roudy rabble of jocks ;) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: AndrewT on September 21, 2006, 03:20:06 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry. No problem with me Mikky. Let's face it, you are from Glasgow, after all. :) I'm from Liverpool. I just happen to live amongst these roudy rabble of jocks ;) My apologies - please don't take my suggestion you were Scottish as a personal affront. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 03:24:30 PM BTW Andrew and others, I haven't meant to put anyone down here so I feel I must apologise if I've come across as being a little agressive in putting my point across! I just get passionate about things I *think* I know somehting about. Sorry. No problem with me Mikky. Let's face it, you are from Glasgow, after all. :) I'm from Liverpool. I just happen to live amongst these roudy rabble of jocks ;) My apologies - please don't take my suggestion you were Scottish as a personal affront. Well, you can see how one could easily be offended by such suggestions ;) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Royal Flush on September 21, 2006, 03:29:05 PM (b) does not include a sport. Those guidlines are ridiculous, they don't outline anything at all. Any activity you name, be it badminton, tiddily winks, chess or curling could fall into the "luck and skill" bracket if they so deem. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 03:59:48 PM Yeah, scratch badminton from that list ::)
But snooker/pool, are these sports? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Nem on September 21, 2006, 04:06:28 PM Yeah, scratch badminton from that list ::) But snooker/pool, are these sports? Does Tigmong like Coco? Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 04:10:42 PM I like Wheetos at the moment.
Anyway, my point was that the definition of a sport is very arbitary. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Bongo on September 21, 2006, 04:13:57 PM Poker is shown on skysports, therefore it is exempt.
sorted! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 04:15:23 PM When the probable court ruling about poker becomes overturned in 2007 due to this new legal definition of "games of equal chance", I can see a new challenge being brought up. Poker is a sport! If darts or snooker can be classed as sports, and chess can be legally played for money - then why can't poker be classed as a sport and as such have no legislation under the new laws.
Hmm, minefield methinks Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: Wardonkey on September 21, 2006, 05:01:56 PM If you run a poker club for profit without a casino license then you may very well be breaking the law.
Will you be prosecuted? Probably not, at the moment. The police have better things to do and the gaming board commission do not have the resources to go after every club. They have picked the biggest and the best prepared to test the legal waters (Gutshot). The gaming board/commission takes the view that these clubs are illegal (with the possible exception of Roy Houghton's new club). They are currently prosecuting Gutshot under the 1968 act. If this prosecution is successful then no doubt existing clubs will face prosecution also under the 1968 act as this is the law that they have been breaking. When the new act is implemented fully then clubs will have to comply with the new law. The new law is clearer there seems to be less room for interpretation. The new law is intended to make organising poker games for profit illegal outside a casino. There may be a way round this, but I can't see it. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 05:05:41 PM if the original poster wants to set up a poker club on the basis of not for profit - eg to have a place to play with his mates, then i think its entirely doable.
Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 05:17:18 PM I've got one of them Mikky, I call it a living room.
Don't think that's quite what he had in mind. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 05:20:06 PM Yeah but its not a proper club is it lol :)
Anyway, I think this is quite interesting, from the Daily record report on the Cincinnati Club raid: Quote from: Dave Colcllough "When we obtained our drinks licence we also had to gain the approval of the Gambling Commission, which was no problem. I'm mystified as to what their motivation in this is. The gaming board officials APPROVED the cincinnati club before it opened. But yet they still raided the club and seized its assets. So the gaming board approves Roy Houghtons club - does not mean to say it is legal. Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: thetank on September 21, 2006, 05:29:50 PM If a club gets raided, that's not to say it's illegal either.
My living room is illegal, I smoke in my place of work ::) Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: mikkyT on September 21, 2006, 05:50:04 PM If a club gets raided, that's not to say it's illegal either. My living room is illegal, I smoke in my place of work ::) Agreed. On both counts :D Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: damon on September 21, 2006, 08:25:18 PM Roy Houghton - in his interview with UK Poker News website - says he's been to the Police, the Gaming Commission and the Council to clear the way, presumably using lawyers. If that is not reassurance, then nothing is. But then again, perhaps he'll be done by a one-outer! His words were: "We've spent a lot of time and trouble going to the Gaming Commission, the City of London, the City of London Police and it's all been done. In other words, we're starting a private members club, the facilities are totally free of charge, we are not taking rake or table money." http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2006/9/roy-houghton-interview-pt2.htm I would only advise Roy and anyone wanting to start a Poker club,that they make sure any go ahead is giving in writing from GBGB,Police and Local council,as I do know that many Gaming Board officials contradict one another. The Cincinnati Club was giving the go ahead,and then raided by those people who gave it the go ahead. The Service charge is not illegal...saying that,there has to be a service i.e complimentary drinks snacks or buffet. The new laws are trying to make it impossible for private clubs to survive i.e for the use of a club,the maximum a guest can be charged 60p per day. Maximum tournament buy-in 4GBP...maximum prize 400GBP. saying that if the people are happy with the club they play in and want to help keep it open,I reckon a service charge is the best way around these stupid laws,and that could mean... Eat as much as you want buffet Drink as much as you want(non alchoholic) Parking included Dealers and so on There is definetley nothing in the Gaming law stating how much a service charge should be...it could be the MOST EXPENSIVE BUFFET IN TOWN... The tournaments buy ins remain a restricted,but you still have a place you want to play poker. With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else! Title: Re: Setting up a Poker Room Post by: kentishman on September 22, 2006, 12:48:55 AM ;goodvevil;
Hi All, I have read with interest the discussion on the opening of a poker club,and some sound comments have been made. However can I put matters in perspective.The Loose Cannon Sports Bar and VC PLayers Lounge is totally legal. A very considerable amount of money has been spent on top lawyers( experts on the Gaming Act) and as I have stated all relevant authorities have been approached for approval. Our club is NOT A POKER CLUB, BUT A GAMES ROOM. We will be hosting backgammon tourneys, kalooki tourneys,rummy tourneys, poker tourneys and other card events. THERE IS NO CHARGE FOR TOURNAMENTS, NO REG FEE, 100% PAID BACK TO PLAYERS.FOR CASH GAMES NO CHARGE OR RAKE AT ALL. I KNOW I MUST BE MAD BUT THIS IS BEING DONE FOR THE LOVE OF GAMES OF SKILL,WHICH POKER IS,AS ARE ALL OTHER GAMES WE HAVE THERE. WE do not come under the auspices of the Gaming Commission, they themselves have written to us,and informed us of this.It is the City of London Licencing office to whom we are responsible,and they are quite happy to accept the fact it will be a private members club. We open now on the 23rd October, and very much hope that what we are hosting will be to the benefit of all players who enjoy a GAME OF SKILL. a LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY HAS BEEN SPENT BY THE INVESTORS, SO THE LEGAL ADVICE ETC. HAD BETTER BE RIGHT. These clubs have to be properley controlled,and we very much hope that legislation and the authorities will continue to have certain rules in place as to the opening of these clubs. I am now going to bed, goodnight all. Roy Houghton |