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No Limit Tournament Poker.

Geezer goes all-in.

Dealer immediately counts & announces the size of the bet, without being asked by anyone. Right or wrong? And why?

I've sat at many a table where this has happened & several knowledgeable players - Carlio Citrone springs to mind - have gone loopy.

What's the thinking, the logic, the rights & wrongs?

It's wrong, it's fine if they ask would you like me to count it? But offering a player more information than he may think to gather under his own initiative is offering a poorer player a better chance to make a good decision.

The only argument against it is so that pre-internet poker players can't pull strokes against the kids such as building mountains of lower-denomination chips with which to make their bets appear bigger than they actually are.

Cross-reference the players who protest with players who 'make full use of the rules' when playing and you'll get a tight little Venn diagram.

The dealer shouldn't do anything at all unsolicited.  It can go quite some way towards inducing (unwanted) calls.  Of course, on request, the dealer should count the chips and announce.

Totally wrong, I know when I was dealing when someone gors all in You ask if they want a count, but never automatically count the all-in amount.

To be honest though I think it may be time for a change and enforce a rule whereby all in amounts should be counted when the chips are in, similar to how things are online. It would help stop people "cheating" by announcing they are all in for more than they have, which is known to happen.

Just a thought.

The only time I've got genuinely angry at the table was during a big tournament at Walsall once. I was very short stacked and about to take the big blind next hand..

The dealer just stopped dealing. On asking why he replied:

"There's a break in 30 seconds, no point dealing another hand"

Obviously by the time I started to agrue the 30 seconds elapsed and the cardroom manager did nothing. I was beyond furious.

Dealers should deal, not think!

Personally I don't think the dealer should do anything that could influence someone elses desicion at the poker table. therefore unsollicited he should not announce. Without wanting to offend any dealers; Dealers at the poker table are tools and they should not do anything unless requested.

However, in just about every tourney I play the dealer will automatically announce it and I am OK with it now as I can think for myself and when I ship my chips in on a steal I will make sure there's no value in calling me. If, on the other hand, i know I will take it down I will give everyone all the value.


If all tourneys were to change however I would like the dealer to just deal the cards, get on with it and shuttit, there's one dealer at my local tourney who even stops dealing to listen to other people's conversations or stops dealing while others are ordering drinks...whenever he approaches the table I am playing at I always just want to stand up and say "No that's allright I'll deal. I might be a shit dealer but I'm a hell of a lot faster then you are"

Never bothered me personally. Once they are over the line they ceased being mine anyway.

That's different. In your case, once you sit down they cease to be yours. I mean, have you ever won a Tourney of note? (Go on, get in son!).

I think it is wrong if the dealer does anything towards influencing the decision of the other player.

I was once playing a tournament in Blackpool when i was short stacked in the big blind. Someone had raised and i decided to take a stand with whatever two cards i had. Everyone passed round to me so i announce all in and push my chips in. My reraise wasnt really enough to get the original raiser to pass as they were getting the correct odds to call regardless of their hand, i did however have a lot of small denomination chips and so my bet may have looked bigger than it was to my opponent on the other side of the table. The original raiser started to stall and looked as though they were thinking about laying the hand down.

Just as i got my hopes up the dealer then decided to count my stack, seperate the original raise from my stack leaving the reraise as a visible stack then turn to my opponent and say - "its only another 7000 to call" and even got 3000 in chips ready to give to the original raiser in change for a 10000 chip.

needless to say i wasnt too happy when my opponent said "oh, ok then", called and proceeded to outdraw me and eliminate me from the tournament!! :'(

Usually several of the players at final tables are tools too!!

Precisely. The insertion of the word "only", albeit unintentional, probably changed the guys decision.

Rules are changing from day to day, cardroom to cardroom

What may help a little is the guy who pushed all in , seat next to him folds instantaniously
and the next seat is staring at the chips.  The dealer notices that he is staring at the chips and puts the chips in piles to help the player count the all in stack.

Dealer announces to player what the all in amount it.

Both me and Raj said at the time its not a problem. You could see that the player was needing help in finding out what the amount was, and the dealer helped him.

I can understand that sometimes when you push all in that you don't want people to know what the exact amount is, because you maybe have a huge stack of small chips and want to make your bet look bigger than it is, but you also have to look at the situation and go with common sense.  A player is looking at the chip stack in the middle and looking at his chip stack.  Its obvious what the outcome is, the dealer just helped the player by announcing how much it was

In this situation dealer did a good job.

I was NOT referring to any given situation Mel, it's just a general question I am trying to get right in my mind.

The question was, is it correct, or wrong, & why?

I have always been 100% dealer-supportive - but they deserve to know what the rules are, & why, so they can enforce them fairly, & with common-sense.

I don't know what the rule is, or why, & I'm trying to assess what's right. I just know tht most players are opposed to it & think it's wrong, but I'm trying to find out the whys & wherefores.

I don't mind it, keeps the game moving a little faster.

So the expert loses a little edge to the beginner, well I want a few beginners to win a few tournaments now and then.

When I hear the more vehement arguments against dealers sorting chips on their own initiative, I think, whatever happened to...."You gotta give action to get action"

Out the window it seems, miserable types hang on with bitter fingernails to all edges they can get. String bet string bet string bet.

You may well be Right Mr Tank Sir, which is precisely why I asked the question.

To be honest ok my situation was slightly different in that you could see that an Internet player was looking at the chips and dealer was helping and used common sense, not a problem

In my honest opinion an all in bet shouldn't be announced unless a player asks for a count, however you have to use common sense.   The onus is on the players involved to ask for a count, but with lots of more internet players making the breakthrough into live games and lots of newbies coming onto the scene, they need a little help here and there

Hi,
I don't know if newbies are allowed opinions on such topics, but here's mine anyway.... :D
The key is, 'the geezer is all in'.
A really good player knows at all times which opponents he out-chips, and which opponents out-chip him.
A count is only required for an all-in call decision if chip stacks are very close. i.e. will I be out or will I still be alive.
A count should only be conducted at a player's request, no matter how helpful the dealer intends to be.

Then again, I'm no expert!

Love the forum, by the way :D

It did - that and the fact he had the 3000 chips in his hand holding them towards the player. the dealer recognized that it was an instant call but the player didn't until the dealer all but spelt it out to him.

When i have dealt in a self deal tourney i will never announce the amount of a raise until a player asks "how much?". If a player is unsure all they have to do is ask the dealer for a count - its not that difficult!

I have to admit i can count chips quite accurately in a dirty stack (there was a player at BB3 who seemed surprised that i knew how many chips he had when he went all in with all his chips mixed togehter) but there have been times when i've asked the dealer to count the chips in the pot to then work out the odds i'm getting to call.

Nothing wrong with this. Just an experienced player getting his bitter bullying knickers in a twist because someone told him it was wrong to steal the 1st year kids dinner money.

When I am dealing, I always stack pots so they can be easily counted - usually in stacks of same denomination chips. I have had a couple of the regulars chastise me for doing it because it is taking away our edge. But I know what it was like when I first started - keeping track of a pot was impossible and with the chips in a massive pile on the table, counting a pot was not going to happen.

When a player makes an all-in bet, I make sure the chips can be seen easily (some players don't even push them over the line) and I instantly turn to the other player and offer a count although I don't instantly count (well, not verbally anyway lol).

I must be doing something right because I am always asked to deal, without fail. Often by the same regulars who chasitise me :) and end up dealing all night at most games.

I could not agree more, Mel, "common-sense" must apply, & I'm a huge believer in common-sense. I repeat, I did not refer to any specific incident.

But your reply raises a further question. Yes, I agree, hypothetically, the newbie would-be-caller may well have needed some help. Fair enough. But what about the all-in-er?.....He has rights. too. Maybe he did not want his stack to be annuonced, unless Oppo-Man requsted it. Does he have that right, that his stack won't be anounced to one & all, unless someone IN THE HAND requests it? When I know the answer to that, I can get my head round the rights & wrongs of it.

I'm trying to get it clear in my mind - what is correct, & what is, potentially, unfair, to BOTH parties. Because, as sure as God made little apples, the scenario will arise, &, like me, I know you are working towards some consistency in these things. The rules of Association Football, Rugby Union, Tennis, Squash, any large-scale organised activity, are always consisent wherever the event takes place, & no matter under who's auspices the event is promoted.

If you are a player - its simple..............

"IF YOU ARE NOT SURE - ASK"

Then the dealer can help and no-one can have any objections

The play in live games is slow enough at the best of times, as compared to the internet. What's the betting that the players who complain about dealers speeding the game up by announcing bets are the same ones giving big Hollywood dwells, chastising dealers for not dealing quickly enough and then making a big fuss about how the blind levels should be longer because 'it's turned into a crapshoot'.

My 2 cents :D

If the money has crossed the line, that is now the dealers responsiblity. He/she should know how much is there, remember the "how much is in the pot debate"?

If more than one person is left to call then the dealer should say how much it is to call (in the uk anyway) to keep the flow of the game. The dealer SHOULD NOT COMMENT AT ALL especially using words like "only...". Head to head, then the dealer should remain in silence until asked, but still know how much is there upon request.

It is the experienced player that usually uses this trick head to head, with small denomination chips making themselves look strong, and more often than not it is the experienced player that will object. The easiest way to make this play "low chips, that look like a large amount" is to just declare "all-in" without moving your chips. It is usually followed by the opponent by "How much is it" or a fold. If it is a how much, then the chips should pass the line so the dealer can count it.

IMO it is a small stroke pull, for the objectors. As such it should be announced.

It is the players responsibilty to see how much goes into the pot, but more often than not (especially low value chips, lots of) they are chucked in the middle willy nilly, how can anyone count these in a mound? I never understand why people count out chips in nice little stacks, then push them forward, knocking them everywhere? Is it in a players manual to do this :D

Which is an ok philosophy if you don't consider that most new players will not ask when they should, for (amongst other reasons) fear of looking silly.

I think you raise a good point here matt with regards to self-deal anyway. Dealers are also players. It is to the dealers advantage that the all-in bet is called and the player is knocked out. We know the situation, you are X places to the money (or already in the money) and every player knocked out moves you up the prized ladder. We all know how much a short stack can change the dynamics of the table. The dealer could very well be influencing the newbies decision, giving him every bit of information possible so that he doesn't make the mistake of folding simply because the dealer wants the other player (you in this case) out.

I think you need to make a distinction between a paid dealer and someone volunteering to do it for the table and who is also playing. If I'm playing in a tournie and dealing (like Mikky) then i'll do whatever i think is necessary to speed up the decision for someone, even if that means offering a count to someone who hasnt asked. I've offered to do the table a favour and if people are unhappy with my style of dealing then they are more than welcome to take over from me. If I was a pro-dealer or dealing at a final table, i'd keep my mouth shut and wait to be asked.

That view has merit Tank. But we must not disadavntage the original pusher, either. It's not a given that he's a stroke-puller, not at all.

I've wondered this as well, along with its corollary - me pushing forward my chips, in nice neat stacks of 20, winning the pot, then having the dealer sweep the chips back to me in a dishevelled heap.

should never happen at the Broadway, they weren't trained like that

Anyone who puts a dirty stack, low denominations first, or mixed in with big ones, and then moans about the dealer giving the player a verbal count, is quite obviously stroke pulling. The bitter whining afterwards is only because he got caught trying to take candy from a baby.

You wouldn't be putting the original pusher at a 'disadvantage' - you would merely be removing a potential advantage that he may, or may not, have accrued through a stroke. Why not make things unequivocal and remove the chance for the advantage to accrue?

Thanks Rich.

So, lets get to the nub of the question.

Is there a rule, anywhere, that says one or the other is right or wrong? Or are we just doing "custom & practice"? Given the amount of money sloshing around in poker, there should be a rule for thus, surely?

As many of you know, my mind is a weird if not wonderful thing, and when I see what appears to be an anomoly, I just have to poke about behind things to understand "why?".

I don't see announcing the size of a bet as being a disadvantage to the original pusher.

All it does is negate the advantage of being able to visually count chips (or having the confidence to ask every single pot)

Guaranteed right, what difference does it make?

I was actually referring to when I was playing out in Vegas - it was something I noticed. I'm sure the Broadway dealers would never dream of messing with my stacks. :)

Thanks Andrew. I have no quibble at all with making it unequivocal. I'm trying to find out what the Rule is, & why. This thread suggests few of us know! Hence the question.

Weirdly, if we compare it to Online Poker, we ALL know the rule there, because the amount is shown.

And my question was hypothetical!

Don't mind us bolt, we're discussing poker for a change.  :D

It does make a reasonable difference, and as Tikay alludes to, a hard and fast rule either way would be great.

I think what is right for a big fezzie event final table, is not necessary the same thing required of a £5 rebuy down the local.

In the latter, I see keeping the game moving along at a brisk pace takes precedent to the complete elimination of any possiblilty a dealer may be prompting a player. As such, this is one rule I don't mind not being the same across the board.

In my view, this has come about from custom (in this country) and I don't think it is a bad custom.

In USA they are told not to count, don't know if there is a rule about it.

There should be a rule yay or nay, but a rule non the less. In fact a book should be published, with every small point, or even APAT could do something, but can I urge you that TD's should be involved rather than players only, a mix would be good or a debate, to clear the whole god damn mess up. It's not that hard for rules like ths and others to be written down as standard practise.

In answer to your question though TK a rule does not exist at the moment. As far as i am aware.

Not a rule, just general practise.

I know your point, but i know a lot of players who enjoy the whole stacking up their chips after they've won a huge pot and building them into nice piles.

Why should there be a distinction because someone has gone all in? They have still made a bet or a raise and surely it should just be treated like a normal bet/raise?

As far as I can see, there is no 'rule' as such, it is, as you say, custom and practice.

But it's a custom that the old-school players certainly see as giving them an advantage over the kids (who may not know/feel comfortable in asking for a count), so they want it to remain. It could be argued that, in and of itself, would be reason enough to get rid of it.

As it happens, there are other, better reasons (speeding up the game, kiboshing the stroke-pullers etc).

What you saying; i read the first post and without reading the rest of the thread made an impetuously uninformed post? ::) ;)

Because normally, the value of a non-all-in bet is verbally announced ('I raise to 24,000'), whereas an all-in isn't. ('I'm all-in'). Therein lies the confusion.

Well Said Mr T

Thanks Rich. You anticipated my thoughts precisely. There IS no Rule at present.

Every eventuality, sadly, should be anticipated by the Rules in something as huge as Poker. In my opinion.

You & me too! Better than sex. I did it once. Won a huge pot & spent ages stacking it, that is.

Not always. I've seen many plyers pushing in stacks of low denomination chips without announcing how much. To which someone says "Dealer friendly ffs", and to which I instantly count and announce.

Would a rule for every eventuality remove the need for common sense we were all such big fans of a couple pages ago?

I agree but I think there is lots of ambiguity in poker when it comes to rules, especially at home games and self-dealt tournies. What officialy constitues a mis-deal? This should be known by all players at a table as its a fairly big rule but I wuold say 7 or 8 out of 10 playesr dont know what officialy is a mis-deal.

High stakes poker had an incident where Daniel Negreuna announced what the all in bet when T Brunson asked. Negreuna wasnt involved in the hand and Brunson wasnt happy that Mimi didnt need to answer. Brunson said it was etiquette not to talk abuot anohter players hand. Daniel justified it by saying that it had been happening all day and yesterday. Even at the very highest stakes there is ambiguity!!

I was trying to say that things shouldn't be treated differently because the person has gone all in, well at least in my opinion.

If someone says "raise" and chucks in a pile of chips (but not their entire stack) should they be counted by the dealer?

....and then wonder why the chap who won the tournament the other night only tipped you £2  ;goodvevil;

Yes, that happens. That's why I said 'normally', not 'always'. :)

It's not treating all-ins as separate - it's just that this situation overwhelmingly occurs with all-in bets, as opposed to non-all-ins. That's why everyone is talking about all-ins. But it would equally apply to any non-stated bet.

How many TD's have common sense? LOL

The one whose bets I kept counting tipped big :)

Sometimes, I wonder why it's not called rare sense.

No, & well you know it!

You already know this, but it works ike this. FIRST you have the Rule (which it seems we don't) THEN you apply common-sense. Without the Rule, the Common-Sense does not work in this case, as money is involved, & there are some very strange peeps in poker.....

You are not wrong. Give me common-sense over intelligence any day. Luckily for me.

My thoughts.

The dealer should not count the chips when it is an all in bet unless asked, simply because, especially toward latter stages of the tournament, it slows the game down so much.

At this stage, it's not uncommon for someone or other to move all in every 3 or 4 hands, and I have seen players holding their cards in the 'I'm passing' position, obviously not interested in calling, but waiting for the dealer to finish counting.

If the player wants a count, all he has to do is ask. Let's keep the game flowing.

 

Interesting, prevention of slowing down the game has used for both sides of this argument now.

Tsk, RED-DOG, you have to wander in with your common sense, your new insight which everyone else had overlooked and your sensible suggestion. Why can't you let us bicker in peace?

OK, new idea. All players should announce the size of their bets. In order to facilitate this, there should be more colouring up of chips, so that players don't have huge walls of chips in front of them. A player shouldn't really ever need more than, say 50 chips in front of them, if they're of the correct denominations.

EDIT: Actually, scrap that, I've just thought of three separate reasons why that wouldn't work.

The is a very similar situation with fencing.

The referee is not allowed to 'voluntarily' tell the fencers how much time there is left for the fight. The fencers can ask the referee for the time whenever they like and the ref must tell them. But to tell the fencers the time left when no one has asked would be giving an advantage to whoever is losing and is therefore not impartial.

So, how important is it for the dealer to be impartial?

I had a similar incident occur to me in vegas during a tourn in the bellagio but it wasnt the dealer who announced my all in amount. I pushed my chips in, in neat piles and the guy dwelt for ages and I swear he was going to muck, he was looking at his cards for a second long stare, eventually a player on the other side of the table said "its only xxx to you, you have pot odds". The guy called and put me out, I swear to god i could have smacked matey boy big mouth. What could I do at that point though? It is a 95% certainty that mateyboy piping up cost me my place in the tourn.  I made my feelings perfectlly clear but it didnt make me feel any better. I was furious. It was an obvious call and i cant believe he was thinking for so long but that is not the point.

There's no bias though, if hes doing the same thing all the time for all players.

Like if the ref in fencing were to always announce the time remaining every 30 seconds regardless, there would be no bias.

Correct! But as it appears we have no such rule, inconsistencies, such as the hypothetical one I mentioned, will occur.

Okay, how about dealers who announce the suits of the cards on the flop ?

Personally I don't like that either.

Nor do I, but my biggest pet hate is the dealers who look at the cards before they show them to the players  ;grr;

Ive only read the original post and not seen anybody elses oppinion on this but for me the dealer should deal the cards and do nothing else unless they are asked to do so. If you push allin on the bigblind and he autofolds his junk when in effect he should be calling with any 2 because of how little much else it is to call then thats his problem. I remember in 2002 when Julian Gardner pushed allin on day 2 of the wsop for what was a miniscule extra ammount of chips (raise reraise rereraise type situation on a paired flop) and his opponent folded then realised he only had to call a few extra chips to try and win a huge pot and eliminate Julian (too late was the tournament directors decision as he had already declared fold). julian was in fact bluffing and then went on to win 1.1 million dollars- can you imagine if the dealer had automatically said its only another x to you sir and induced the bloke to call?
The only problem I once had was when a dealer put me on the clock after I had spent a couple of minutes debating wether to bluff the river after being called on the flop and turn and I had missed my draw. I was trying to work out wether I could get it through and how much to stick in to give me the best chance when the dealer said "you got 60 seconds russ", i went mental and mucked my cards and it completely threw my game (this was a £1k buyin event as well). The dealer in question at least had the decency to appologise afterwards and there was no hard feelings after but imo dealers are there to do their jobs and let us do ours- interfearing with our jobs is not and should not be in their remit. They have a very hard job to do but they get paid to do it, if we cock up we are not getting paid so I personally think the best dealers are the ones who do their jobs effectively and quietly ( if they are easy on the eye  then even better ;) ).

The dealer called the clock?

Off their own bat? or at a request from player or TD?

off his own bat. He decided I had enough time to act and no player had said a word. Long time ago now and am friendly with the dealer but i was not impressed at the time.

That shouldn't happen, they can announce what cards they are
ie Ace, Queen, King etc

Responsibility of the player to see what cards are in front of them.  If a dealer did that i'd pull them up for that, it can lead to all sorts of problems including for example saying potential flush draw, a player may have not spotted that before it was said, and jump on that fact.

Incedentally you will not find me chipping at dealers or throwing cards at them as they have a very tricky job to do and that is all they do. Sometimes it feels like a dealer has it in for you but they are only doing their jobs and in many places they are trained poorly and taught how to deal incorrectly. Simple things like leaving people bets in front of them would make their job a lot easier but some casinos insist on making their life as difficult as possible by teaching them badly.

I agree totally with ariston.

but there is a world of difference between a player umming and arring over a descision and one which is an autofold maneuvere.

Dealers should deal, and count when asked. In the example I posed where a player is pushing piles of slummy into the middle for every bet, it was rather different and on each occasion (it was a bit of a "table joke) the players said "ffs, ok whats that meant to be". But I got to the point where I was asking for a count before he had finished pushing chips :)

There was a huge thread on exactly this some time back, Matt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...which concluded that........?

Not sure actually, i'll have a look for it in the morning :D

Damn i'm good!!!!!

Though it isn't exactly the same :(

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=5989.0