blonde poker forum

Obviously I am talking cash games.

I actually think yes it is, but I use it because I feel that if you dont, you are at a MAJOR disadvantage over others who do.

In a short space of time, I have almost 10,000 hands on most people that play $1 $2 on a particular site - this has won (and saved) me plenty of $$$'s

Discuss.

I thought about this earlier

How long till a site brings out the ability to change your table name everytime you log in?

I believe Party Poker allow you to change your user name every month??

I think using it for your own games is fine - it's akin to remembering hands and making notes that you might make at a live game (albeit in a much more efficient and structured manner).

However, what has become known as datamining (opening up lots of tables and letting your machine accumulate hands in games in which you're not playing) I think crosses the line, and I won't play cash games at a site that allows it.

which sites allow it. I too think it is dubious

If Pokertracker is cheating, how do you feel about the ethics of making notes and compiling statistics with a pen and paper as you play online?


Same reason I take anabolic steroids.


Datamining is an abuse, but the sites can easily stop it (and many did) by not writing hand historys of observed tables to your hard drive.

I dont use it when I'm playing anymore, just use it for self analysis.

Any tool that gives you an advantage over someone else who hasn't got the tool is cheating in my book

The essence of poker, is everyone starts off as equals.

completely against that to to be honest.

Why?

Poker books? Experience?

Completely different Mr Dempsey ;tk;

Because it is the only way people get to know you online.  This admittedly might put you at a disadvantage BUT I feel that, as you can't walk into the same casino day in day out but play as someone else, this actually is just not right.

I always play under the same username..everywebsite I play at it is boldedge, never different and it will never change. This gives people the chance to know me (and quite a few at bet365 do) and I also don't mind giving someone who spent hours analysing my play the idea that he's figured me out.
I don't need to change my name to keep ahead, all I need to do is change the way I play. That's the way it works in a casino/pokerroom and that's the way it should work online IMO.

I have spent some time with people in HU games and I have notes on all those people, if they were to change their names my notes become useless. Now admittedly they would become useless aswell if those people change their style of play, but changing the style of play is something I can respect as it shows people growing as a poker player, changing the name takes no skill and is only available to give lazy people an edge.

*this admittedly is not the most coherent post I have ever posted on here (or even worse, it might well be) but that's just the way I feel.

So are you against the use of pen and paper beside the computer?

Not really different at all, according to your broad definition that you layed out.

The essence of poker is not everyone starting off as equals.

Perhaps it could be everyone competing on an equal platform, but that's rarely really true either.

You travel to a new place, the locals have more knowledge of the fishies, maniacs and rocks than you do.

You walk into a cash game where everyone is drunk. Do you not sit down as you are sober? Perhaps you quickly slam a few tequilas so as that the essence of even competition can be properly observed?

Also, a guy who can afford to reload 300 times and still get chauffeured home is not really on an even keel with the desperado who's playing on fluff.

For sure there's an appearance that all is equal and fair, but if that were true, no-one but the establishment would make a bean.



Personally, I think the essence of poker is more about working (within the rules) to find any edge, and then milking it as best you can.

As use of pokertracker ain't against the rules laid out by most sites T&C's....

Poker books and experience is something that you have gone to the effort of finding out for yourself, and everyone has the option to read and use experience of their knowledge. Making notes are fine and encouraged.

Tracker is like taking a calculator into an arithmatic exam, those who have studied and practised, get higher marks, then some little git sneaks a calculator in and gets higher marks??

Jsut as everyone can go to the effort of finding out about Pokertracker for themselves, and everyone has the option to use and eexperience this.

:goodpost: ;iagree;

Who is really the "cleverest" in this example? 8)

What about the person who does both?

I give up LOL

On-line poker and live play cannot be compared

Anyone who plays cash for any meaningful stakes on a site that supports poker tracker or poker office would be a fool not to use it. People will use all the tools available to them to maximise profit, when the prize is money this is to be expected.

Is it not up to the sites to determine what constitutes cheating? The sites are either happy for people to use the software or they are not able or willing to stop it. The result is the same.

You may not like it but software like is not going to go away, if the sites ban it then people will find a way to cheat. The only sensible approach is to allow it.

A very fair point.

I'd use the more appropriate analogy of a mathmatics (rather than arithmetical) exam. One in which you allowed to take a calculator.

Somebody who chooses not to, complaining about the people who do.  :dontask:

Awww, stay and play.

I was just getting started.

Some recreational plyers do not know that tracker exists, let alone what info it gives out.

I agree it is fair, as long as everyone knows what it is and everyone has the option to use it, once they know.

To be honest, I did use tracker, and my friend came round one afternoon and watched as i played.

He was dumbfounded and decided never to play online again, even though he now knew about it and could access it.

I no longer play online, my choice as i prefer to play/run live games. And my job is to protect every player, new and experienced from sharking, and to make a game run smooth.

So yes I did use tracker and I still think it's wrong now?? Sorry ;goodvevil;

You think it is idealogically wrong, this is a perfectly valid opinion. Nothing to be sorry about.

I'd like to know though, at what point on the idealogical spectrum does note taking stop, and the evil pokertracker begin?

If I use a pen to jotty down tally marks when each opponent plays a hand is this wrong?

What if I do the same thing with how often they bet/raise compared with how often they call?

What if I also keep track of how often they've reloaded?

I'll have pretty much the same info I would have if I used pokertracker, but I'd be running out of room on my piece of paper.

In fact, I'm going through entire forests worth of A4 here. Maybe it would be better if I used a computer program?

I think theres an inherent diffence between those that would seek out software such as pokertracker and those that play online and remain uninformed.

Its to do with darwin and the theory of evolution ;)

By all means, use the information , you yourself have personally acquired.

Using a computer, is giving you information that IT has acquired.

Might as well throw a bot in there? and cut the middle man out.

Now you're muddying the argument a little.  PT does nothing to advise you how to act or to take action on your behalf.  As others have said, its just a very sophisticated form of note-taking using information that the sites put in the public domain.

Datamining of tables where you don't play is a grey area ethically for me, although the solution lies with the sites themselves in acting to prevent this.

The commercial sale of info collected from datamining is where I think the problem lies and is fortunately the issue which the sites are taking most action to clamp down on.  Similarly, anything (a bot, etc) which offers advice or acts on your behalf should clearly be outlawed.  PT doesn't fall into this category (or the HUD's that use its data).

Sheriff

Sorry, i was just going on the theory of evolution :D

Lively debate - as I knew it would be

Had this kind of discussion many times with friends in recent years.

The problem is that different rules apply to internet play than do to live games and the dividing line appears to be what you can do to police the internet and attempts made by internet players to get an advantage over rivals.

Lets start with a live game and a simple straightforward example.

I cannot sit down at a table in a live game and have friends standing behind me sweating me and advising me on what to do when it is my turn to act. This is considered cheating.

However online I can have a room full of friends advising me but this (although ethically wrong) would not be deemed cheating as there is no way of policing it and as such would be "Acceptable."

But does this mean that anything that can't be policed is acceptable?

Certainly NOT but like in real life llet the buyer beware!

Someone having access to information that you do not have would be considered cheating. eg a friend of yours is playing omaha at the same table as you and at the same time is calling you up on his cell phone telling you what cards he has discarded. You have additional info that your rivals do not have and this is not acceptable but cannot be policed but in my opinion is definitely not acceptable.

With poker tracker everyone has access to the program or others like it so you could say that it is OK to use it to gain an advantage over rivals who do not use these programs but how would we argue that using a phone and disclosing hole cards would be acceptable as everyone is also able to do this.

I guess what I am trying to say is that because this is the intenet different application of the rules of poker apply. I would go as far as to say that because of policing/monitoring difficulties ANYTHING goes and as such if you are unhappy about it simply do not play.

Downloading any program that performs some kind of hand analysis (like poker tracker) is potentially extremely dangerous. If you can see your own hole cards on the computer screen then the program knows what your hole cards are. Problem is what happens if there is a little trojan virus or other program running in the background that sends off details of your hole cards to some other remote computer and a rival player? This certainly is unethical and cheating but you are unlikely to know it as you have already allowed your computer to lapse security wise when accessing the poker site.

Bottom line is that regardless of what you may believe is right or wrong there is a lot of money to be had in online poker and despite any and all security measures by online sites with regard to the integrity of their games there will be a lot of skull duggery going on and to be honest it isn't that difficult to get some kind of unfair advantage over opponents and as such the final answer probably lies within the moral code of each individual that participates in online poker.

Just a few of my own personal thoughts on this subjet.

The way I see it, it's not up to us to decide what is acceptable and what is not.

It's up to the individual online poker rooms, who decide the rules and lay them out in their terms and conditions of use. It's their ball and they can do what they like with it.

Comparing actions that violate these rules with actions that do not makes little sense to me. To me, it's like a discussion of the ethics of check raising, wholly ridicolous.

I don't know of any rooms, that don't not cleary define that collusion of the type you've describred is bang out of order.
People still do it, of course, but there are ways to detect them, they do get caught (and punished) sometimes.

My advice to anyone who thinks the use of pokertracker is against the ethos of some sort of poker dogma that they've conjured for themselves is simple, don't play online.

All it really is, is a program to help you make notes.


This is true, but to play online, you are also downloading Party Poker's software, or Pokerstars, or Full Tilt or Ladbrokes etc. What's to say these programs don't contain your trojan horse applications?

With a progrm such as pokertracker, owned and operated by repected persons, with a reputation of some 3/4 years trading in what is still a very young industry. I feel as safe with Pokertracker as I do with any of the major sites software themselves.

I wouldn't download any program that doesn't already have a reasonably long established reputation.

Also, its worth pointing out that you can run pokertracker on a second pc. Thus removing any such risk.

So what is the difference between a program that tells you things like:

"Tracking every player you have ever played against and keep detailed notes on each player. You can see how often they see the flop, raise pre-flop, check-raise, win at showdown and much more."

And a database which gives you information like players MTT winnings and losses?

The fundamental difference as I see it, is that
"Tracking every player you have ever played against and keep detailed notes on each player. You can see how often they see the flop, raise pre-flop, check-raise, win at showdown and much more."
Is no more information than would be available to you anyway, from the natural course of playing the game. If you were so inclined, all the info pokertracker gets you, you could get yourself with (albeit extensive) note making.

A database that gives information like MTT players winnings and losses would not be freely available to you during the natural course of playing the game.

Winnings only, all fine and good as far as I can see. After all, the same facility is available for live poker with all-time money lists and the like.

As I've said though, it's not up to me to make the distinctions. If a poker sites T&Cs are fine with it, then I'm fine with it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't play.

And do you honestly think that you would have the time to take the hand histories from a two hour cash game session where you were playing 3 tables simultaneously and then make a note of every bet from every player, every check raise, every showdown etc. etc? It would take you so long that you would hardly end up playing poker.

so the solution - get a program to collate all the information for you.

Tournament histories are freely available from some sites - allowing you to see the results of any tournament you wish to see the results for. This history gives you not only the names of the people who cashed in the tournament but also those who finished outside the money. Again if you so wished you could take the time of noting not only how much money people were winning when they cashed but also how much they were losing when they didnt. Again this would take so long that you would hardly end up playing poker.

so the solution - get a program to collate all the imformation for you.

In my opinion they are either both cheating or they are both acceptable but i dont see how you can say one is and the other isn't. As you say at the end of the day the decision lies with the site, if they say it is acceptable then we live by their rules.

Harry

PokerTracker doesn't 'look' at your hole cards in the way you describe.  It obtains its information from the hand histories which the site provides (most site nowadays have the option to write these onto your hard drive).

There are some applications (probably most of them against the T&Cs of the sites) which get information via 'screen scraping'.  These, to me, do not use widely available information and so are much closer to contravening the ethics of online play.

As to the issue of people communicating via MSN, this should be easily detectable by the sites if they are looking for instances where groups of players are constantly sitting down at the same tables as each other.  Provided this is flagged up, the sites should be able to identify collusion via the relative plays made by the two.

One of the methods used by some sites nowadays is to scan your own screen when their software is open (effectively they have the function to screenscrape you!)  I have always been uneasy with this on general privacy principles but it is a valid way of detecting some forms of cheating and you can do nothing to prevent it as the right for them to do this is in their T&Cs.  Party definitely uses this functionality as there have been threads on 2+2 where players have received warnings that illegal software is being used - triggered by a cookie left by one of the illegal, pay for datamined information, websites.

The ways in which the sites have reacted to these threats is interesting too.  Stars have basically been guided by what they can and can't detect and take action against (much in line with your own argument on the differences between live and online games).  Party have, at various stages, acted to clamp down on one form of software or other and have ended up being vague and inconsistent about what is and isn't allowed (at one point there were threads on 2+2 showing people receiving different answers to the same question on the issue from Customer Support).

The biggest issue for me is that the IT literate can find ways to circumvent the need for hand histories to obtain information and the products they come up with have the potential to be very slick and powerful.  Personally, I would draw the 'legal' line at anything which doesn't use publicly available information, such as hand histories, and which doesn't take any action to advise or act on the players behalf.  PT falls within the legal category on this basis, hence my support of it, most of the other products out there go beyond this.

Sheriff

I don't see how I can say either is cheating or not. I aint now, and am not likely to be in the future, the author of terms and conditions for poker sites. I just abide by them.

Anyway, last time I checked, Pokerstars don't mind you using thepokerdb.com. 

At the moment I work as a collusion monitor for a network, I am not allowed to play on these sites, because of the information I have on their players. If you personally track one player, you would have the same info as me, but it is physically impossible to do this. Why should I therefore be disallowed to play? The only advantage i would get, is that I know who is under suspicion for collusion, and would avoid those tables?

Coz your bosses said so.

An employee of a casino in the UK, as I understand, isn't allowed to punt in one.
Many barman arn't allowed to drink in the pub they work when they're off duty, coz their boss doesn't allow it.

I see it more as being about professionalism and the avoidance of appearance of impropriety, rather than actual impropriety.

Anyway, using software to track stats of players in games you arn't in is akin to using a database service, and most sites have programs such as these on their banned list.

apologies for misunderstanding - that was the impression i got from reading your posts.

PT, pen & paper and your memory are all methods of note taking with different efficiences. Managers will tell you that your memory is just poorly kept records. So i don't mind people using PT but i think it is ethincally wrong to do it when you aren't at the table.

I did use PT with Ub but i didn't like it so i ditched it (i hardly ever play cash though). How do people who use think it affects their live game, i.e. when they don't have it? I think watching your opponents and making plays based on what you see is a skill that needs to be practiced so PT could harm your live game.

But we will know when you stop making statements like this........


Unless this is part of an elaborate bluff to cover up the fact that you already have the software ;)

I have never used any type of tracking tools. Well, I used a trial thingy for pokertracker, 30 hands or something like that.  When my Uncle visited Africa many years ago he met with a tracker and was given a leason.  Unfortunately the tips my Uncle passed onto me have had no success when I use them at the poker tables.  However I did track some footprints on the beach the other day successfully, they led into the sea and then disapeeared.  I believe I was tracking a sea monster or a person who enjoys swimming

A bit far fetched? maybe but perhaps I should get one of them to try this as an exercise just to see if it could be done.

I agree. There are companies out there who make concept viruses. It is only when people make these concept viruses (like the bluetooth mobile phone one) that other people take notice. They could write it, tell everyone (the press etc.), obviously say they had no intention of using it and make it open source so everyone can see how they did it. That would change things.

You may say that it's irresponsible to put something like that on the net but if it's possible then it's likely people have done (are doing) it.

ps. don't you think Kev's online performance has improved a lot recently  ;goodvevil;

I thought that was just down to the fact that he's in charge of the levers nowadays?

I never used PT due to the fact that I am a mac user.  Reading this thread though, made me feel a bit paranoid.

Saying that though, the way to beat the PT is to change your game on the regular basis and to become highly unpredicable.

PT I assume, looks for betting patterns and so on, so changing gears, mixing your game will make it more difficult to read.

(I might wrong here, so you can correct me)



How can i find out which site using this software?

Is there any software (for macs) that can prevent those computer terrorists getting to my computer?

Or perhaps I should just sitck to live cash games.

What about MTT and STT?

Surely one can spot PT/other software users if they play more then 5-6 tables at the same time.

I have to be honest and say that I hardly ever play online as firstly I find it boring and secondly I spend too much time already on the net and much prefer live play and real person interaction. However I have had some limited success (STT's and tourneys) but overall I have lost in low limit cash games but most of my losses came about from my nephew logging in and doing dosh for me on various online accounts:-(((((

One thing I am certain of , however, is that I would NEVER play large cash games online (unless it was heads up and even then reluctantly) cannot believe ANYONE plays full ring Omaha games and would question the plays of some allegedly top class internet players who have won $$$$$$$$ as I have actually downloaded and read through tens of thousands of actual cash game hands played.

BTW Poker Tracker may be artificially useful as there are numerous players who share accounts with friends thereby mixing up styles to confuse such software and you can always change your online screen name periodically.

I too much prefer the live game, however as i work during the day i can only usually play in the evenings. The internet is so much more convenient because there is no travelling involved, no additional expenses and usually the tournaments are finished in a decent hour so i can get enough sleep to see me through the following day.

If you say it bores you then chances are you are never in the same frame of mind when you sit down in-front of your computer as you are when you sit down at the cardroom table. You are subconsciously telling yourself you would rather be somewhere else doing other things than playing online poker which will probably lead to you not playing your a-game.


I agree - to be honest though i don't play cash games full stop, especially on the internet as i believe its too easy for people to collude.

I agree - to be honest though i don't play cash games full stop, especially on the internet as i believe its too easy for people to collude.
[/quote]


that's why I stopped (not just cus I'm a fish). MSN and all that good stuff makes it too easy for people to do. Although I would never consider cheating in a poker game (as I consider it just about the lowest thing you can do) I understand that some people don't have any scrupules when it comes to taking other people's money.
In an STT or HU game tyhe chances of that happening are a lot lot lower.

Heads up i agree with but there's just as likely that it could happen in an STT as a cash game. I play MTT's and i know that there is a likelyhood that it happens there as well but with the "random" seat draw and tables being broke and reformed at regular intervals then the opportunity for 2 players who are "in cahoots" for them to collude is less.

yeah I agree that it is possible in an STT, howveer the really colluding money is probably to be made in cash games and the high stakes stt's so I am OK with playing.

MTT's are indeed pretty safe IMO because, as you said tables break up a lot.

Oh i dont know - if you are going to forge money you'd be pretty silly to go out and print a nice new batch of £50's that are going to be under close scrutiny every time someone touches them when you can get away with a batch of £5's that hardly anyone bats an eyelid to............

Who knows how often it happens and where - the sites are hardly going to publish figures but like its been mentioned before in the thread you are only going to play somewhere that you feel comfortable with. Otherwise if your not you just have to find somewhere else, even if that means not playing online full stop and sticking to just live poker.

You've missed the point about PT - it doesn't look for anything.  Its simply a database programme that stores data on the hands you play.  The user has to do all the analysis.



'Those computer terrorists' are the sites themselves.  Don't download their software if you don't want them scanning your machine.

Sheriff

which sites still allow PT to be used for datamining purposes?


I asked on Pg 1, don't believe I got an answer,

thanx

I searched over at the PT forum but couldn't find a definitive list, so I didn't reply.

The one I was explictly thinking of was Party.

Someone has alluded that it is possible on FullTilt

I've certainly seen people post HH of the big Omaha games on Full Tilt over at 2+2, games in which they were not playing.

Tough one to answer with any accuracy, as things are constantly changing.  Many sites don't specifically allow datamining but probably don't do anything to prevent it - Party used to be easily datamined by anyone as they wrote hand histories for observed tables to your hard drive.  This has now changed.  I've read that Full Tilt has the same 'weakness' but I've not looked into it specifically.

Basically, any site that gives access to hand histories for games you didn't play in can be datamined.

There are an increasing number of datamining tools being developed for various sites - I've just done a quick trawl on 2+2 and found reference to several.  Mainly they cover Party and Stars.

Stars is the only site I'm aware of to specifically ban data-mining (http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/).  Their policy is quite interesting reading in terms of the arguments made on this thread.

Sheriff

There's an app for Tribeca which datamines as well...  :(

It is possible on Full Tilt.

A friend has two computers and has one datamining on Full Tilt on a semi permanent basis

If you are logged in and playing at a table on pokerstars you can get full hand histories at other tables simply by opening the table in question then minimizing it on your taskbar. Your hand history will then also log all the hand histories from that table as well and will give you all the information apart from cards mucked at showdown.

i regularly do this when down to the final few tables of an MTT then when we are on a quick break i have a quick scan through them to see who is playing aggresive, who is passive, who the table captain is etc etc for when we get to the final table.