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please please please lets not let this thread get into a flaming and abusive war.

lets take off our red tinted,blue tinted and green with puple spots tinted glasses off please.

my point is all the pundits and all there supporters were screaming from the rooftops to all and sundry who would listen that this would be there season in the premiership. that they would be the main danger to chelsea.

its not even the end of october and they are already imo out of the title race 11 points behind man utd and chelsea.

i know the liverpool supporters will start spouting about the champions league etc which was i agree a great achievement but thats largely a cup competition which it seems liverpool are very good at raising themselves for one off games but to do it week in week out over a season they dont seem good enough.

imo take steven gerrard out the liverpool team and they're a run of the mill mid table side with him a top 4/5 side.

man utd completely out classed them sunday and i cant see it improving and some of benetez's team decisions and signings are baffling.


as i say please lets not flame lets discus.... your views please

I totally agree with you mate, they have some good players but Benitez has the strangest rotation policy, Kuyt looks pretty good but wasnt used very well against Man U (who never looked like losing or even conceding at any point in the game) it was a very confortable win for united and I think Liverpool might struggle to get Champions League, Bolton are looking very good and are getting some good results away from home, I think they'll last the season in a high spot. 

Totally agree, Kuyt has flairs of brilliance, but was totally unsupported against united...which made it impossible to get anywhere with Vidic and Ferdinand on his case.

I think they need some big changes if they are to go about threatening the title anytime soon.

I don't think they are overrated at the moment, I can't see anyone singing thier praises to be honest.  Saturdays game has almost finished them off for the season.  Gerrard isn't performing at the moment and I think the feeling is rubbing off on the whole team.  Not sure why he keeps playing Gerrard on the wing either.  Totally out classed my Man U at the weekend, I'd be a bit disapointed if I was a Liverpool fan at the moment.

I think their problems lie in defense where Reina has been terrible and his lack of confidence has affected

Hyppia and Carragher and then spread like a virus throughout the team.

It's strange how what seemed like a watertight defence last season has become so porous, and Sissoko who looked a

tremedous acquisition and had a great first season suddenly seems a shadow of last year's player.

I fancied Liverppol to come closer in the league this season, mainly because I really rate Bellamy & thought he might add a more predatory edge to them. Unfortunately for Liverpool, the wee man's not turned it on. Man Utd are starting to look like the team to beat in the title race.

We were rubbish on Sunday.  Completely useless.

Who said we would be fighting for the title this season?  The media?  The same media that said England would be fighting for the World Cup,and West Ham would be fighting for a Champions League spot?

Liverpool are still 3 or 4 players off where Rafa wants the squad and team to be.  There are going to be 2 or 3 decent signings being made in the January window, and some in the summer.

I'm as disappointed as anyone with our start to the league, and yes, we're out of contention for the title bar a miracle (or set of them).

Going back to your point about winning the CL, and saying that Liverpool had to raise their game for the odd game - you're doing their achievement a dis-service.  Bayer Leverkusen, Juventus, chavski and then AC Milan.  Hardly easy matches, and hardly a one-off performance.  I understand the underlying point that you're making that Liverpool seem to do well in cup competitions - that can't be argued, and the FA Cup last season highlights this as well.

But the team is still in transition.  To say Rafa's signings are baffling...who exactly?  Bellamy was a bargain.  Pennant a good signing, bought because we couldn't our first choice (although that'll change come January or the summer), Kuyt - a good buy, Agger - a natural replacement for Hyypia when his great Liverpool career comes to an end.  Aurelio and Paletta will need time to adjust to the premiership, but that's fine (look at Tevez and Mascherano at West Ham - hardly setting the world on fire, and look at the fuss that was made about them).

I've heard the argument about Liverpool being a one-man team lots of times.  How many games did you watch last season when Gerrard didn't play for Liverpool?  How many did we win?  You'd be surprised.  Of course Liverpool will miss Gerrard if he's out of the team.  Show me any team in the country, no Europe, that wouldn't benefit from his presence in the team.  Saying that, he was shocking on Sunday as well, along with Alonso and virtually all the team.

As for struggling for a Champions League spot for next season.  That won't be a problem.  The Champions qualify automatically... :D

Bellamy has been playing well.  Shame he was injured for the game against man u - we sorely missed him.

Ahem, aren't you forgetting someone ?

On their day Arsenal are good enough to beat any team in the premiership, i'd even go as far as to say any team in Europe/World.

Unfortunately the days dont happen consistently enough week in week out for them to win the premiership this year IMO.

Arsenal play the best football in the Premiership, Man U are a close 2nd.  Unfortunately we don't put the ball in the back of the net enough.  The games we haven't won this season we have been great too, just not taken anything from the game and it's cost us.

Chelsea grind out results, they aren't that impressive - look at the win over Reading - they we're lucky to win that with the deflected goal (Not saying Reading deserved it though because they didn't)  Even their win at the weekend wasn't that impressive.  Chelsea do get the job done though and they don't often drop points to the 'lower' teams.

every liverpool supporter i know was spouting at the start of this season that they would be the main danger to chelsea in the premiership so imo it wasnt just the media.

i agree arsenal play great football at times but again dont grind out many results when the chips are down like man united and chelsea. there team is very young and will be a major force in the next few years and have the best youg player by miles in fabregas.

man utd are man utd, they have the best manager to ever grace the game and as well as attractive football they can knuckle down and pull together to get a result.

as for chelsea you cannot knock a system that has won to two titles and although i agree they may not be as attractive as man u or arsenal or even liverpool for that matter i do think they get some unneccessary bad press.

i canot agree with silo regards chelseas win the weekend being unimpressive. this was probably there most dominant game of the season and the 2-1 scoreline flatters portsmouth as dave james had a blinder. the shots on target was the highest for 3 years and with a bit more luck or a average performance from mr james and chelsea would have won without exagerration 6-1. this against a team that didnt conceed in the first 5 games of the premiership.

back on topic personally im not sure if benetez is the man to take liverpool forward, his use of the most inform english striker in peter crouch baffles me.

Has to be either Darren Bent or Andy Johnson for me not Crouch - Crouch has only 1 premiership goal all season. Though i have to agree that he is Liverpools most likely goal scorer at the moment he isnt really that good a player at holding the ball up playing as a lone striker and feeding players making runs through the midfield - which is the system of 4-5-1 benitez planned to play at old trafford

fair point matt.

hes the england teams best striker at the moment and must be on such a high with his international record.

must be very frustrating for him to keep findind himself on the bench for liverpool. im not a great fan of his but you have to admit although his games not easy on the eye its certainly effective.

imo he would be the first name on the sheet s far as the forward line is concern and it should be kuyt and bellamy fighting to partner him, he is the perfrect foil for either of them.

I have to admit that i nearly fell out of my treehouse laughing when i read the news that Liverpool had paid that much for him and his first few months hardly did anything to change my views. However at the moment he is Liverpools most inform striker and he is scoring his fair share of goals per games played for both Liverpool and England.

Now whether that should be a concern for both Liverpool and England to say that they are both relying heavily on Crouch to come up with the goods is another question in itself!!

You don't go to Anfield much then?


Ermmm, according to who?  I'd argue he's one of the best managers to have managed in England, along with Paisley and Shankly. 


He was successful at Valencia, he's brought Liverpool more success in the past few seasons than we've had for over a decade and a half.  He'll get the time from the Liverpool board, and I have no doubts he's the right man.  Even if I don't understand some of his team selections recently.  I'd argue he's made mistakes, but that doesn't make him the wrong man for the job.  We're moving forward, and in a few seasons we'll hopefully be good enough to seriously challenge for the title.

no i dont get to anfield much as im not a liverpool supporter. never once said i did. i said all the liverpool supporters i know some of whom do visit anfield regularly were spouting on about liverpool challenging this year.along with numerous liverpool fans on here and radio phone ins.

paisly and shankly were great manager but personally i think ferguson outshines them both.the game today is a lot harder than it was in the 60/70s and has moved on. ferguson has achieve what he done over a longer period of time so IMO is the best manager ever.............and by the way i dont support manchester united.


so you think benetez is the right guy and your happy to wait a few seasons to seriously challenge for the title?
hes had a few years now i cant see him being given a few more before hes challenging by the board or the supporters of liverpool can you?

I like Liverpool, but they sure was average again Man Poo at the weekend.

Like the expert pundits keep saying I believe he should keep the same team week in week out as best he can, also play Gerrard in centre midfield where he is most effective running the show.

Paisley's nine seasons in charge, Liverpool won six League titles and finished second twice, 3 League Cup's the first time that Liverpool had won the trophy, 1 UEFA Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 5 Charity Shield's and most significantly they won the club's first 3 European Cups.

I thought he won 8 league titles, dunno why i thought that.

Anyway, This record is far better than Fergy's.

Aye but history meaning nothing apart from bragging rights tbh.

Yea, and something to sing about when you go to matches.

Under ferguson united have won:

8 League titles
5 FA Cup
2 League Cup
6 Charity Shields
1 Champions League
1 UEFA cup
1 European Super Cup
1 World Club Championship

Yes, but that is in 20 years.

true - but who could say had Paisley not retired in 1983 when the great Liverpool team of the late 70's and early 80's had broken up whether he could have continued that good record rebuilding a team?

Whilst Ferguson has taken 20 years to achieve what he has instead of the 9 seasons that Paisley did it he managed it by continually rebuilding teams which could be argued is a greater achievement.

To be honest in my opinion they both have magnificent records in their own rights - different era's and in different ways. Who knows whether Ferguson would have had success in Paisleys era and visa versa. To me its impossible to say one way or another that one is better than the other.

I'd gathered you weren't a Red.  There might be a few fans who believe what they read in the press, but most knowledgable Liverpool fans would have been more hopeful that we could compete in the league this season than confident we would.  I'm very active on a number of LFC supporters forums, and there's been little talk of us being one of the favourites to win the league this season.  As for the radio phone ins...sorry, most of the people that phone in are idiots who cry for a manager to be sacked one week, and knighted the next.


Shankly did what he did without the money man u have (and incidently at the time when he took Liverpool from nowhere to be the most successful club in English football, man u had all the money and were the 'big club').  Why is it harder now?  Other people have posted Paisley's successes, so I won't reiterate them here.  You could argue it was harder then than it is now.  Today only a handful of clubs have the resources to challenge for the title, it wasn't like that until the money in football became ridiculous.


Show me when Liverpool have sacked a manager - when they haven't given him a chance time-wise or in terms of money to back him?  Liverpool do give their managers time.  Benitez will be given time, and the support of the board.  Give it two years, and we'll be challenging for the title.

That was my point.  ferguson isn't undoubtedly the greatest manager in the history of English football - no matter what Sky says.  Shankly and Paisley's achievements rival his.  Ferguson won the treble, Paisley retained the European Cup - which is the biggest achievement out of those two?  Both very, very impressive.

Two Scots and a Geordie.  Don't know if that's significant...probably not, but it's interesting anyway!

and as i said its my opinion and im entitled to it and no matter what facts or figures thrown at me my people with red tinted glasses will change my mind.

5 years for a manager before hes expected to challenge for the  title is a long time for a big club again imo

Ahh yes but Shankly's and Paisley's achievements occured before sky television and therefore in their eyes they dont count ;)

If it isnt on Sky then it doesnt exist!!

It took Fergy 6 years to win the league and Man U were the richest club in Britain at the time.

I vaugly remember when live footy was on ITV and the coverage was a right load of pap.

''paisly and shankly were great manager but personally i think ferguson outshines them both''

You really have no clue what your talking about.  This line sums that up very clerly. 
Man U were the more hungry team on Sunday and its clear we won't be challenging for the title this season.  However the signings Rafa bought are geared towards the CL and i believe will shine when it maters.   Kuyt will score pleanty of goals this season yet.

I hope so, he's in my fantasy football team and i'm taking an arse kicking this season.

I haven't really read this thread yet but I'll post my views.

Liverpool have done the exact same thing as last season. Had an awful start. Last year we finished 9 points behind Chelsea BUT we were 9 points behind them from October!

So if you take into account mid-October 2005 to the end of the season we were as good as anyone. Now add to that a few decent signings and it stands to reason that we'd only be better.

I had the same thinking with Arsenal, bad season last year and lost a few players this summer so they'll be worse (hence my bet with Dan) but again it's not really that simple.

So was the hype logical? I think so yes. Was it correct? Obviously not.

However I'm still quietly confident of an excellent league run. We've had the hardest start of the top teams. (Chelsea, Man U, Everton, all away) We have by far the easiet run in. We'll have the freshest squad (with our rotation system) and  when we're on form we can beat anyone.

All you have to do is look at when we were on form last year. We beat Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal (admittedly not all in the league) but when we meet these teams in a good run of form we can outplay them as we've shown.

So what has gone wrong this year? The balance of the team is wrong. With all of the attacking sigings we've made this summer we've lost the best defence in the league, the clean sheets upon which our 9 and 11 game unbeaten runs were built. We need to get back to basics and start defending well, especially away from home.

We bought Crouch for tough away games so let's start playing him. If Hyypia doesn't make the grade any more Agger must be brought in. Most importantly, if we buy another right winger at Xmas (hopefully Alves or Simao) Gerrard must get a run in the middle of the park.

and we continue to play players out of position

Paisley won 3 European Cups and 6 league titles. He is the most successful manager IMO.

As for our board, we have one of the best in football. (Along with Arsenal, Boro and Man U) We support every manager to the bitter end - even Souness!! Anyone remember the last time a Liverpool manager was sacked? Benitez has had 2 years in Liverpool with 2 trophies. One of them the European Cup. He's won the Uefa Cup and Spanish league titles with Valencia in only 3 years there. Mourinho said two years ago that he's the ONE manager in football he has total respect for (before thrwoing his toys out of the pram after the Champions League semi final).You really think the ultra patient Liverpool board wont back him?

People seem to forget this.

5 years is not a long time after the way Houllier left our club!

I agree.

Alves will be joining us in the next window (if not the summer).

just because my opinion is different to yours it means i dont know what im talking about does it?

how does that line sum it up very clearly? isnt it a matter of opinion or cant liverpool fans see futher than anfield for legends?

I guess the question is who overated them?
At the start of the season it was fairly obvious that the top 2 would be Chelsea and United, then it would be between Liverpool and Arsenal for 3rd & 4th. As allways there is the possibility of one slipping up and someone sneaking in. I think as it stands that the season will pan out like this again.
As to why this is, my view is it is not down to rotation systems, managers etc, but down to money. Until any other club has money to spend on individual players like the amounts spent on Rooney or Schevchenko then it is highly likely that the top 2 will be Chelsea and United.
Sad, but true.

If you're arguing managerial records, then Stein, Clough and Busby could all be included as well in the lists of greats.

The one feat Fergie's got that no others have is winning European trophies and league titles in 2 countries. So while it's being said he did what he did at Man U with loads of cash, his record in Scotland shows what he could do with a very unfashionable team with not much money as well.

yeah but someone might not agree with you so you dont know what your talking about  rotflmfao

'I'LL LET THE FOOTBALL DO THE TALKING'  famous line from Bob paisley when given the job

Honour's
European Cup Winners : 1976-77 , 1977-78 , 1980-81
UEFA Cup Winners : 1975-76
League Champions: 1975-76 , 1976-77 , 1978-79 , 1979-80 ,1981-82 , 1982-83
Runners up : 1974-75 , 1977-78
League Cup Winners : 1980-81 , 1981-82 , 1982-83
Runners up : 1977-78
F A Cup Finalists : 1976-77
Championship Winners Medal : 1946-47

Quoting stats doesn't constitute a debate, Stein's achievements are well up there, with international team achievements as well. Similarly Ferguson has done it in 2 countries. Greats are greats and comparisons are useless.

yawn

and another paisley saying:

"YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST GAME"

think that makes you shit  rotflmfao

you wasting your time rod some people cannot debate they are so far up there own backside to see the world around them  rotflmfao

I was just trying to show that Fergusons' honour's did not 'outshine' that of paisley and shankley.   I agree with you Rod that they were all 'Greats'.(Stein and Clough included).  But you need to look back at inthebelly's comments which is what i was responding too.

and my comment was that i think alex ferguson was the best manager ever. thats my opinion whats wrong with that? others have other opinions but i wouldnt tell them they know nothing for having a different opinion to me.

imo again lol you cant measure a managers ability on honours alone like you seem to be doing.if thats the case we would be saying luca vialli was better than say sam allerdyce because he won 5 trophies in just over a year as manager of chelsea.thats simply not true.

managers work at different clubs with different resources to work with so judging them on honours alone i think is not justified.

if mourinho went on to dominate english footie over the next 5 years with chelsea and win 2/3 champions leagues which is not beyond the realms of possibility, yes it would make him a great manager but again IMO not up there alongside ferguson, shankly and paisley due to the difference in resources hes had to work with.


again these are only my own thoughts and opinions and i apologise for knowing nothing.

To be honest I haven't read the whole thread, but I am suprised this hasn't turned into a war zone.

IMO the thread is like holding a red rag to a bull and saying lets discuss why you don't like this colour.

Its all very well saying discuss like adults etc but discussions in the written word are far more difficult than over a pint in a pub. Luckily the Liverpool fans on here aren't too quick to snap - but had this been an Arsenal/Tottenham (or even Newcastle!) debate I would have feared the worst!!

Anyway I don't think Liverpool are overrated. I dont think anyone geniunely believed they would win the title this year. They can be a really good side but lack the consistancy needed to perform in a league format - this will not come without stability and that won't come without playing the same players in the same system in their best positions.

I actually like the rotation. Last season we had trouble performing in the league after a champions league match. Everytime we had a CL match midweek we went out at the weekend and lost to teams like birmingham etc. We need the extra players and you don't keep good players without rotation.

we both know that if this thread was up a few weeks ago then it would have turned into a flaming war. i dont think it has anything to do with liverpool fans not being quick to snap and i think its rather unfair to point out fans of other clubs as an example of fans who would snap.a few weeks ago all would snap so its a credit to liverpool fans now that they have not.

i think in light of recent events on blonde posters are thinking more before pressing the enter button which then makes for a much better debate instead of just throwing insults.

a number of good points have been made on here by a number of different posters looking at things as objectively as they can and doing there best to remove thier colour tinted glasses.

apart from mr crips who obviously has his red tinted glasses welded to his head thier has been no hit of personal insult or flaming.

yes i admit it sorry. ;scarymoment;  i did put this thread up as a bit of a test for blondites  ;hide; to see if we had all learnt from recent events on here.


 :respect: the majority passed with flying colours  :D

Cough - Benitez - cough - Valencia!

This is a really interesting thread guys, let's not get personal eh?

I agree with what Rod and ITB are saying but trophies are everything in football in my opinion. Resources or not.

You think Mourinho will be remembered for spending loads of money or winning trophies? The first league titles for Chelsea in 50 years? Obviously it will be for the trophies.

When it's all said and done that's what will be remembered first and foremost.

By that reckoning Paisley is #1 for me.

Damn - you beat me to it.

I was also going to say that does it count winning trophies in a minor footballing nation - but that might be a little inflammatory... ;whistle;

This articale sums up perfectly where we are right now....

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG153873061025-0814.htm

cough-murinho-cough-porto


still doesnt make him as good as ferguson.

il acccept the paisley shankly argument but benetez in same breath as ferguson come on! rotflmfao

I agree. This season Liverpool have become what Man U have been for the past 3 seasons. mediocre at best. Seems Man U have gotten off to their best start for quite a while. The season is not yet over, and we can only pray that they suffer a couple of injuries because they have no real strength in reserve.

Whats the second club he has won a European trophy at?

I didn't mean to imply he was in the same league as Ferguson - I was merely picking a hole in Rod's "European trophies in different leagues" argument as a reason why Ferguson was the best in his opinion.

The way I see it you can argue ANYTHING to make one manager more successful than another (as Rod has done with that statement) but trophies are the one constant that cannot be argued against!

If Mourinho wins 5 European Cups ans 10 league titles with Chelsea then YES he is the best manager ever IMO.

Also - out of interest, I think the start to Benitez career as a manager is very much on a par with Ferguson's  - he's only really starting out though. (The same argument could be had about comparing Mourinho to a younger Ferguson.)

i dont think that an arsenal/ tottenham debate has ever turned into a flaming war at all.

i actually get on/got on quite well with nemisis( i assume that this is who we are talking about ) and i get on ok with kev.

who says liverpool are overrated anyway?? i never expect them to finish any higher than 3rd or 4th, does anybody else?

as for who is the greatest manager, i dont care all i know is that arsene wenger is with doubt the greatest manager we have evr had and one of the best this country has ever seen... No, before you say it, he hasnt won 32 champions leagues etc but he has taken our club from a top 6 club to challenging for the league every season (apart from last season). he has taken us into a new stadium, and yes he had a hell of a lot to do with it along with brand new training ground.

he has us playing the best football i have ever seen in this country, we have won 2 doubles and so on won the league unbeaten.

oh and thanks baron, for reminding me about our bet....i had forgot 8)

I agree Wenger has changed football in this country. Another world class manager in England.

(http://www.rampantscotland.com/graphics/europeancup3075a.jpg)

Too true Dan, we have had many "discussions" with the spuds fans on here and they have always been in a good spirit with no flaming at all and I'm talking about a period of 18 months.

We have had many differences of opinion as is only normal and we are all still friends and have always been, in fact Nemesis whom I only met on this forum, has become a friend of mine because of our banter on here and we have never ever "flamed" each other despite our being in opposition footie-wise, Kev too.

It is possible to discuss football as a passionate fan without insulting people.

LOL, we were discussing greats, I don't think Benitez comes into that category in British football.

As for minor countries, last I heard European trophies are competed for by all European countries. I think you've helped my argument though Kinboshi. The CWC win with Aberdeen must have been an even bigger feat :D

I think the Benitez comment was in relation to his ability to take Liverpool forward, and it tied in with the other comment that Ferguson's greatness was further displayed by his ability to win trophies in two countries - which Rafa has always done.

As for Scottish football - the best player I've ever seen play was from north of the border. 

King Kenny.   ;tightend;  He wasn't a bad manager either.

 ;tracet; :redcard: Not as well regarded up here. Blotted his copybook forever at Celtic.

Didn't do too badly with Liverpool and Blackburn (with Walker's millions of course).  Certainly a better manager than Souness.  He was a great player, but a shocking manager.

Dalglish was a brilliant player, and a successful manager (except with Celtic, but hey, he's human).

I love being overrated.

;D

23rd May?

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/images/2005/08/19/lego_home_203x152.jpg)

Just remember, you have made a final.   you aint won fk all yet. ;)

I love the way the Baron has gone on found every thread that has said anything against liverpool and dragged it back up.

For once I agree with Kev, you have won nothing yet, yes it is nice getting there but you got to do it. I remember last year how great it felt to get there but it felt alot worse losing in the final.

I take it all the Liverpool fans chirping at the moment will be going to Athens, there is nothing worse than armchair fans that gloat.

 rotflmfao

Oi where have you been ?

Where were you last weekend ?

Well done yesterday  ;hattip;

congrats to liverpool with this weeks results.

i started this thread and have been proved wrong ....  fair play and good luck in the final.


p.s

thanks aaron for bringing the thread back (you must lead a boring life  ;)) and enjoy your trip to athens

Would love to go.  But can't afford it due to a new kitchen and a wife who for some reason has other priorities.  Missed Istanbul as well, and had my flight booked for that.  I'd promised myself that I wouldn't miss the next one - but looks like I'll have to watch it from the comfort of my armchair instead.

Sorry to dig this one up guys but us Reds have taken quite a hammering this year as has Rafa, some of it fairly, some of it in jest and some of it harshly.

Win or lose in the final the lads have done me proud, I'm not going to bitch either way.

In truth, after yesterday's performance by Milan I'm not so confident anymore! Not bad for a bunch of has beens!

One thousandth post only one way to celebrate really-


YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE

When you walk through a storm,
Hold your head up high,

And don't be afraid of the dark.

At the end of a storm,

There's a golden sky,

And the sweet silver song of a lark.

Walk on through the wind,

Walk on through the rain,

Though your dreams be tossed and blown,

Walk on, walk on,

With hope in your heart,

And you'll never walk alone,

You'll never walk alone...

Good luck in the Final boys Ayarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 ;kneelsucker;

THE BEST 1,000TH POST BAR NONE.

;tightend;