blonde poker forum

Live game, blinds are 800/1600.
You have 25k and raise in late position to 5k, chap next to you reraises to 10k.
Action back to you (dealer says) and you call the 5k leaving 15k back.
Then a chap in the blind says "i'm allin" for 40k, he is before you and in effect you have acted out of turn thinking he had folded.
Now the question is can you fold or do you have to go allin???

The ruling by the cardroom manager was that you had to go allin as your chips had crossesd the line this was backed up by the other cardroom manager, is this correct?

I think you're allowed to take your chips back... I'm probably wrong though

dunno bout taking the bet back,very possibly


but certainly u do not have to call an all in,that would be outrageous

 ;iagree; Dealers fault ... but I don't like to give them a hard time  ;goodvevil;

I don't think you have to anyway, but when the dealer has misdirected you then that was definately the wrong decision

EASY ANSWER if you use the TDA rules.

Action out of turn is NONBINDING especially when the DEALER causes you to act out of turn.

Your initial 5k bet is stuck in the pot No matter what. The call of 5K and the rest of your stack is FULLY opional to ou. IOW you can swallow the 5K, fold and retain your 20k. Whatever cardroom manager made this ruling is way way off the reservation.

I agree with him above :)

preposterous. thats just insane. i would have accepted losing the 5k and maybe even the other 5k but having to go all in is clearly not fair in anyones judgement surely.

Unlikely as it may seem, MadYank has it about right.

ifm has SOME responsibility, even though the Dealer motioned him to act, it's still his responsibility to follow the play, so the 5k loss is not unreasonable, but that's all.

But there are no rights & wrongs, as we don't have standardised Rules. That rare commodity - Common sense - counts for a lot in my book, though.

Complete nonsense as pointed out by other posters.  I really think that a lot of these bizarre rulings must be down to poor communication or poor listening skills.

That's part of the reason. Add...

TD's lack the necessary Authority.

We don't have Standard Rules.

Everyone at the Table joins in the debate & it becomes a "who shouts loudest" contest.

It would be SO easy to clean up Poker & make it a better game for all. Gonna be a struggle to achieve though.

Do all of the chips have to be over the line like football, if so might there be a need for replays ?  >:?

Seriously though, being punished for a dealer's mistake is just ridiculous imo.

This was at Walsall Grosvenor last night, the TD i had not seen before but he was backed up by a certain blondeite.........
I asked for a ruling i said "can i fold here?" and was told that once they were over the line that was it.
I had AJ so obviously (to me anyway) i was not going to persue the hand with a reraise and a reraise, even i know i'm in trouble (10 10, KK).
As soon as he had made the ruling the dealer started dealing the flop, turn and river, i told her to hang on but she wouldn't, after the hand the other cardroom manager came over and asked what the problem was, he was told and he just nodded his agreement to the first guy.

Bad ruling fromt he TD. Any action out of turn is binding unless an intervening action changes it. In this case you should be allowed to take all of your chips back except for your initial raise, unless of course there is a house rule in place that explicitly states otherwise.

Is that THE The_Diamond of Ireland fame?

AHEM!

Mssr. Tikay?

TDA ules are THE Standard but I have always detected strong resistance from UK cardrooms for the simple reason that they were generated by mostly American TDs?

For smaller cardrooms they are ideealy self contained and easy to read/follow. Alas, many a room clings to randomized house rules which are they often misinterpreted themselves.

In truth Mr F, it matters not greatly WHOSE Rules we use - just let's have one set for all! Then we can tinker with them as needed.

It's really rather bizarre to host a Forum such as blonde. Barely a day goes past without someone Posting "this happened last night, wotdoyathink", then all the experts (you & me included) pile in with their replies, all different. It rarely occurs to folk that there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER, because we don't have standard Rules.

Poker is determined to shoot itself in the foot. It'd miss, of course.

Add,

Most TD's have no idea on what the ruels actually are...they have picked up a poker book often enough but have misread the bloody thing. Of course rules need to be sorted out but if a TD REALLY thinks he is obliged to call the all-in he shouldn't be a TD. and unfortunatly this is the case in way too many places.

I guess I used to be a TD.

Will be soon again maybe. Who Knows.

But as soon as the Blind makes it 40k, then he can take the second 5k back. Its actually stated in the Grosvenor rules as well.

If someone acts out of turn it stands.

Should the legal hand bet more than the offending player then they have the option to call or PASS only.

Should the legal hand bet up to the amount of the illegal bet, then they must call the bet.

He has called 5k not call anything that gets put in. As soon as he says 40k, then he can pass or call.

Also, to quote another Grosvenor rule.

It is each players responsibility to call in turn, even if they are misled by the dealer. (This rule does not apply if the player is misled by a house dealer.)

Of course the rules dont say what should happen if a house dealer does mislead  him tho.

Yogi

Yogi...I wouldn't tar you with the same brush as the TD's I was referring to...you actually know what you're doing :)

Having been/being a TD on both sides of the pond as well I think my previous ruling is straightforward and fair.

As far as "Grovsnors Rules," I'm not really sure what they mean in that having played in at least 4 Grovs Cardooms (TheVic/London, Walsall, Luton, Blackpool (only once) )   they all had (sometimes wildy) varying rules intepreted/posted. Almost every UK cadroom I entered seemed to have some "home field" rules that were nonsensical. Being as I was London Based, I, along with several other VIC players lobbyed The VIC for changes and standardization which resulted in some satisfactory improvement.

Overall though, I agree with Tikay that standardized rules are needed and importantly standardized training for both managers and dealers is also needed. Including in this training should be the ability to tell the 8 shouting players (who all think they know what should happen) to in a sort of way STFU. Like many other things in life or gaming a clear and direct ruling with conviction behind it is a far better ruling (even if perhaps technically flawed) than a wishwashy sway with the mood of the mob ruling in which news players feel they are completely at the mercy of the "locals." I (as a highly experienced and NOT MEEK, I assure you) player got this feeling several times at Walsall and didn't return for over a year because of it. I can only imagine how it may have affected an inexperienced player who felt they were getting railroaded by locals and colluding managers/staff.

Directly addressing the "Out of Turn Action Binding" rule for Grovsnor, this is clearly a horrid rule. This should only be enforced heads-up in that the advantage is yielded to the other player whereas if this horrid rule is enforced in multiway pots then out of turn action is encouraged for shotakers and gains them an advantage.


Right-O. In summary, I'm trying to say that often times in may or may not matter what the rule on the wall says in that oftentimes (for Grovsnor and other cardrooms) that rule is blatantly wrong, or at other times (even when not wrong) is inerpreted to benefit regulars/locals rather than impartially.