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It has often been said, by Alan Hansen most notably, that an international team needs a minimum of six world class players to be able to win the World Cup

Looking at the current England team we have, im my opinion


World Class

Rooney
Owen
Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard (though he looks burnt out, short term)
A Cole

Debateable

Ferdinand
Campbell
Terry

Too Early/Not World Class

Robinson
G Neville/Young etc
J Cole
Wright Phillips
Carragher (though v good and great squad player)

Theoretically therefore this is a team that should be capable of going the whole way

However the players are complacent, in some cases show poor temperament, and in some cases lack the intelligence (it seems) to follow their managers instructions

The manager and his team do not seem to motivate his players, and changes tactics on a whim


The whole set up seems wrong to me


eg You want to play Wright Phillips but don't want to drop Beckham
     So you change your system to put Beckham into the centre
     But you don't want to drop Gerrard/Lampard, so Beckham has to play in front of back four
     Then when Owen comes back you can't not play Rooney, who ends up playing wide left

Sweet Jesus!

Pick 4-4-2
Pick your best 11 for that sytem
Stick with it

If that means not playing certain players, so be it


Finally, someone change the unwritten rule that requires, whatever the score, whatever the situation, whoever is injured, that Owen Hargreaves comes on as substitute. Sven might as well bring himself on. After all, he has successful form at playing away and scoring.


Your thoughts,Ladies and Gentlemen, are appreciated

lol - Hargreaves is such a Phillip Neville type player. - not quite as hiddeous tho.


The team needs more Villa players.  ::)

There is a general problem in international football at the moment which is any half-decent manager can take a bunch of mediocre players, give them a system which says 'get behind the ball and frustrate the opposition' and watch them stifle the 'big' teams through good organisation (this is how Greece won Euro 2004).

The problem the 'big' teams have is that the smaller teams are proving more difficult to break down, managers are having a hard time coming up with 'systems' to counteract this. What not many of them realise is that these games are won through moments of individual brilliance, not solid teamwork. This is why Brazil hardly ever have any problems against smaller teams - they have a squad full of flair and creativity, and the manager simply picks 11 players, tells them to go out and be Brazilian, and watches from the dugout, smoking a cigar, whilst his team unlock the opposition.

Sven is too hung up on his systems (and, crucially, the press are as well, compounding the problem). What England are missing is a Claude Makelele - someone who will sit in front of the back four and deal with any problems. This gives the attacking players more free rein to try things out without worrying too much about it going wrong - it gives them the freedom to experiment. They don't have to worry about the system.  Sven is frustrated by the fact that hardly any English player plays in this position for his club.

Nice post.

It does not excuse putting square pegs in round holes like Sven does though

Of course, a certain team buying Scott Parker and having him languish in the reserves for a year behind Makelele before shipping him on, retarding his development, does not help the search for a midfielder of that type

It is a pickle no doubt about it. I think we HAVE to have two strikers so 4-4-2 is my pick also. (Owen - Rooney)

Hargreaves has done exceptionally well for Bayern this season so I undertsand him as a squad player.

SWP has to play on the right. If this means dropping Becks so be it. SWP has been our best player in the last 2 games but come off twice!? Sven is having an affair with Beckham I swear.

I'm sure when Gerrard and Lamps are fit/on form they will tear teams apart so they're my centre two. I dont think we NEED a holding midfield player. Gerrard and Lamps can both defend but more importantly with those two we should be hammering teams eighty-eight nil.

Left, either J Cole or Downing if he becomes a bit more consistant. J Cole for the time being.

Big Sol is my only worry. Was world class in the last two major international comps he played in but maybe a little past it? Terry/Carragher are good enough though.

I do like a good joke in the afternoon.

looks reasonable to me, and in the 'debatable' section i'd be backing Ferdinand and Tery too.

Terry i would say is world class.

Owen eerrr me thinks not.

Rooney could well be.

Beckahm, hmmmm.

Gerrard, like Beckham, excellent but not world class.

Lampard, awsome i would say he is world class.

Cole, i just dont see it.


And before anyone says, no i am not a Chelsea fan.

world class on paper

pity it's toilet paper

sorry, I disagree, I think the whole list are top draw. plus Ferdinand and Terry too.

More effective international / league arrangement is whats holding us back, not the quality of the team/squad there needs to be regular team get togethers without there necessarily being a match to play like Brazil do.

i think wayne bridge is better than cole

It needs a new manager full stop.
The guy's a joke, he can't even use friendlies to try new things, just throws on body after body for no reason. So much so FIFA changed the rules to prevent it!!
Come on having 4 England captains in one game is pathetic.
Michael Owen is the best striker on the planet when the ball is played for him to run onto, into feet he's useless.
Beckham is the best crosser of the ball on the planet, so he must be out wide.
Rooney, well he has much to learn.
Never liked Gerrard, though a good pal of mine is his best mate (we all had a fortune on him re-signing for Liverpool ;D)
Lampard is ok holding in midfield.
Neville is by quite some distance the worst player to play for England ever, how much did they pay for him??
Didn't wanna get involved in this thread, it gets me too worked up

deep breaths Ian.  ;) ;D

As a Scot I always find it rather amusing when English people complain about their football team. IMO the problem is the level of expectation: English fans and the media demand that their team wins whenever they step on to the pitch and if they don't cue the condemnation. Trouble is sport isn't an exact science; it's played by human beings (Wayne Rooney the obvious exception) and human beings make mistakes. Relax. England will qualify and probably do very well, although I don't think they quite have the class to win it. At least your cricket team's pretty decent: 289-5. The Aussies are going down!

From a neutral point of view

When the manager starts to change his best formation to accomadate certain individuals it is a recipe for disaster.

England have a lot of very good players but no balance. Managers or coaches are paid a hell of a lot of money to make hard decisions, some are just not able to do this effectively & it ends up costing them their job.

Having said that England should still go through but once you get there try & not get ahead of yourselves & start thinking your gonna win it  ;)

Owen not World Class? He's England's 4th highest goal scorer ever and he's 25. He's scored more than in Shearer's entire career for England at 25. He's averaged a goal every 2 games since he was 18. He'll easily be England's all time top scorer and to say he isn't world class is a joke. It's about goals and he scores. Simple.

Lamps vs Gerrard? Give me a break. Lamps had a great season last year at the age of 26 but had fairly average seasons every year before that. Ok they were quite good but not amazing. Gerrard had been outstanding since 20 years old and wins games by himself. No contest.

Bar Roberto Carlos there is no better left back anywhere than Ashley Cole. I had a bet on him years ago to be England's highest capped player ever and I'm on course to win.

If Ashley Cole and Steven Gerrard are not world class why do Chelsea want them?

Well this took a while to get going, but we got there in the end :D

I think all the six I mentioned are world class, no doubt

The issue is how do you get a side with the right balance to play in the right system


In this I am far from convinced that the manager will make the tough decisions necessary


I was delighted for Scotland last night. Walter Smith must be an excellent manager, something I never really recognised when he was at Rangers/Everton

Similarly Sanchez is doing a great job, given what he has to choose from

Is it too much to ask the powers that be to get it right next time for the England manager

owen cannot be world class if he was only the 5th best striker at real madrid or how many world class strikers are out there i would say to be truely world class you have to be in top 5 or 6 in world

Yes but look who he was behind:

Raul - Highest scorer in Champs League history.

Ronaldo - Still probably no1 anywhere.

Robinho - Future Brazilian no1

Julio Paptista - Brazilian ace and 2nd top scorer in La Liga last season.

Not a bad list. Now remember that Owen scored 14 goals in 25(ish) starts at the club. World class? I think so. Was he given a chance? No. And why not? Probably because he cant do flicks over his head like the Brazilians. He'll score as many though, easily!

i think owen is a class striker and a great goal scorer but cant see how anyone that is 5th choice of a club side can be truely world class

that being said kenny miller is IMHO truely world class ;D

I was just amazed to see some villa players on a winning team for once.

and Blues players  >:(

Agreed. (not about Kenny Miller!) However I also forgot to add that I think Owen is better than Baptista and Robinho (at least for now as Robinho is young) and 5th choice is ridiculous. Don't forget Luxemburgo (Madrid) is a Brazilian manager also.

If Owen is actually 5th choice anywhere without bias then the world has gone mad.

Also on that note the previous Madrid manager tried to play Owen over Raul and it didn't happen. Raul, Guti (then Vice captain) and Robby Carlos told the manager if Raul wasn't playing they'd be going on strike. (Raul is seen very much like Gerrard at Liverpool only a million times more loved) Owen didn't play in the end.

So I wouldn't read too much into how the present (Brazilian) manager favoured him behind four others. (3 of whom are Brazilian and one who is club hero!)

Exactly.

If he was French people on this forum wouldnt rate him,

Just because they are English is why most of these players are so highly rated.

What ?   

now if kenny miller was english he would be rated 10x higher than rooney or owen

If he'd scored 1 every 2 games his whole life in the best leagues in the world, then I wouldn't care where he was from he'd be world class.

Now you're showing your scotishness

listen we have won a game 2006 WC its ours now (if you listened to the media)

lol, the scottish media?

I'm scottish and IMHO Owen is definitely world class. He has scored goals in every league, in every competition for both club and country and to take last season when he was third choice at Madrid is absurd.

For a start, Raul has been a shadow of his former self the past two seasons and was only really being picked on past performances (top goal scored in Champs league, darling of the Real Madrid fans). How many goals has he scored the past two seasons?

Ok, Ronaldo kept Owen out the team too but he too is world class and a regular goal scorer. I don't thnk Owen was given a proper look in at Real Madrid last season and wasn't really wanted this season even though he is probably better than those signed by Madrid to replace him (at least at present). I believe Owen was only brought in because at £8M he represented an absolute steal.

With another five years left (at least) in international terms, Owen will probably go on to become Englands top scorer and I think most of us would agree that anywhere round the 50 goals mark for your country is most assuredly 'world class'.

The other players you can argue about all you like....

Oh, and personally I think the English FA should appoint Berti Vogts as your next manager.....honestly, you lot think you've had it bad....

P.S. Ok, Miller not world class, but maybe the most improved and in-form striker in European Internation football at present???

what makes any player world class IMHO it means if there was a match between 2 teams of the top players in the world at present they would be in one side or the other including subs

owen in the past would have made that game and in the future he will proberly again but currently due mainly to his bench warming skills of last season he would not

so IMHO he isnt world class

beckham is getting close to his sold by date

of the rest of the english mob terry lampard and gerard are the only 3 i would class as certs for the team and a maybe case for ferdinand with some regaining of form
rooneys temperment would IMHO rule him out he has alot of growing up to do

I'm not sure how I define world class to be honest I just do. For example Van Nistlerooy wouldn't make my starting world XI either but I know he's still world class.

he is class not world class big difference IMHO

As a Liverpool fan, i have to say that i dont think Owen is World Class.
International Class yes, but World Class no.  Yes he scores goals, but does not contribute that much otherwise.  I'll certainly be interested to see how good he is at a struggling club like Newcastle.

As for the rest of the England team well:

Robinson: Getting better by every game.  Long term England No1 goalkeeper
G.Neville: Steady, but dependable
A.Cole: Good going forward. Not so sure about him defensively
J.Terry: If he had another yard of pace would be World Class.  Reads the game well.
R.Ferdinand: When he puts his mind to it, he is World Class.
S.Campbell: Injured all the time nowadays!! what's happened to him. Was World Class. Jury out now.
S.Gerrard.  World Class Central Midfielder. Basically won European Cup for Liverpool on his own.
F.Lampard. Last season World Class. Can he reproduce it again?  Not so far.
J.Cole: Square Peg in round hole for Left Midfield.  Best England have unless Downing comes through.
D.Beckham: Still just about World Class. Best crosser/set piece taker in team.  Legs starting to go??
W.Rooney (Shrek) : If he sorts out his temper, then he has the potential to become top England Goalscorer.  Mr Fergusson needs to sort him out sooner rather than later.
S Wright-Phillips: Unfortunate to have Ian Wright as Dad.  Given time, successor to Mr Beckham.

Sven: Best England manager for a long time. Worst thing to do is sack him after losing first competitive qualifier. This is Englands best chance to win World Cup since 66.  The press smell blood though, and it sells newspapers.

Just my two'penneth.    Feel sorry for me. We've got John Toshack as our manager!!

wont happen fergie will more than likely retire at the end of year if he gets any sucess this year
if he doesnt get any sucess i think the new owners will replace him with a new face

hmm a striker that scores goals but doesn't contribute...............interesting statement.........are you scottish?

hmm a striker that scores goals but doesn't contribute...............interesting statement.........are you scottish?

I mean when the team aren't playing well (as last night), hes going to struggle.

Well i look at Alan Shearer, all over the pitch, in the corners, crossing, tackling etc.
WHY?
Jeez, he's there to put the ball in the net, simple.
I couldn't care less if Owen touches the ball once in 90 minutes as long as it goes in the goal.............THAT'S HIS JOB.
Should've ignored this thread, deep breathes, deep breathes

As i said, Owen: World Class - No; International Class - Yes.

Not saying he's a bad player. Just that there are better strikers that him.

Love these absurd football discussions.

Taking the old saying that 'form is temporary, class is permanent' I would place Owen in the top 5 strikers in the world in the last five years, alongside Ronaldo, Shevchenko, Henry and maybe either Raul or Rivaldo (who may have dropped off the radar the past two years but was phenomenal for a while).

So, whilst he may not make some two team starting World XI (......) he has been up there with the very best consistently.

I say again, if he hangs up his boots with around 50 International goals how many of you will say "och, he was only really international class you know.....".

P.S. I seem to remember Owen singlehandedly winning a certain cup tie for Liverpool against an Arsenal team that was ahead and dominating the match. He doesn't only score when his team are playing well you know....

So, you think that Owen is as good if not better that Henry??

Never in a million years, and im a Liverpool supporter.

i personally think the 442 and 451 formations dont suit the players england have at their disposal
i think they should play 352. the reason behind my thoughts are- we have possibly 3 of the best centre halves in the world in terry ferdinand and campbell. it is well know that we have a problem on the left side but if you played 3 at the back you could play ashley cole as a wing back and wright phillips on the right this would then give us great width and balance on both flanks. i think the rest of the team then picks itself with beckham, gerrard and lampard in the middle and owen and rooney up front

Didn't say that newport me lad. Said that he was in the top five in the world in the last five years.

True but let me ask you this....Henry vs Ian Wright, who is better? I bet most would say Henry. Va va voom and all that right?

What if I told you Wright scored as many goals in less games? Ok it's a skewed question as they're from different eras but you get ifm's point, it's about GOALS. I don't care what Owen does - his record says world class.

I doubt there are more than 4 guys in ANY major football league (Eng, Esp, Ita) with a better record who are still playing. If there are please name them for me coz I'm lost. :-\