blonde poker forum

First, let me say that I am one of Walsall Grosvenor's greatest supporters, it's my local, and my favorite cardroom. I know all of the staff and most of the "Hands on" managers personally, they are a great bunch and work tirelessly, with smiles on their faces. I take my hat off to them for their ability to maintain this attitude during festival week, when the stress and the workload become enormous

I have to say though, IMHO this years Midlands Masters has been a dissapointment. The blind structures have been very aggressive because they missed out the 75/150, 150/300, and the 500/1000 levels. If even one of these were to be included, preferably the 150/300 level, it would allow for so much more play. As it was. average stack on the final table of the £200 freeze-out was just over 10 big blinds.

The prize structure was very top heavy, with 18 places paid and 40% going to the winner, finalists in the minor places who have fought their way through a field of 180 runners get precious little reward for their efforts.

Finally, last night there was a group of about 6 players, several of whom very drunk. They banged the tables and screamed in unison every time one of them won a pot, then they left their seats to high five each other. If one of them eliminated a player, they gave him the mother of all rubdowns, bad language included. Why this was allowed to continue without penalty is beyond me.

To the average player, a two day, ranking, festival event is something special. This is particularly true of the more affordable, preliminary, £200/£300 buy-in events. and I see no good reason why they should not be given the opportunity to enjoy structures and conditions that resemble (as closely as reasonably possible) the ones that are normally reserved for the big-buy in main events.


Of course, these are just my opinions, (although I know that they are shared by many others) and credit where credit is due, Walsall Grosvenor have always taken players views into consideration, and at the end of the day, thats really all you can ask.

I believe the changed the pay out structure , 10 to 20 receive £300 in the £300 double chance freezeout ( i think thats what it is )
Paul had a VERY ABUSIVE DRUNK  on his table , kept calling people f..k..g c...s , nice man  >:(

I had no idea that Tony G is playing on the UK festival circuit  ;hide;

No objection at all to that Char.

General consensus from reading most live updates is that the majority of blind structures miss out the 75/150, 150/300 and 500/1000 levels (ok, the 150/300 is featured in some) so surely you should be used to playing a structure that goes 50/100 to 100/200 to 200/400 by now?

Though it may not be your ideal structure it is the one that is widely used and therefore the one that you should base your basic tournament strategy around?

I disagree Mat, look again, most blind structures do contain at least one of those levels.

Of course, I do base my strategy around the structure that I am playing, but that doesn't mean I don't decide not to play some of the ones with poor structures, I won't play at Walsall again this week.

If you think less aggressive structures aren't popular, look at this thread
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=17132.0

By your reasoning, if it were a 5 minute clock and 1000 chips, I should just adjust my strategy and say nothing.

what i'm saying is that if you didnt like the structure then you shouldnt play - then if enough people didnt turn up for the festival then maybe the casino's would sit up and say "So why is it that we aren't getting enough bums on seats".

As it is the festivals still pretty much sell out week in week out and not that many people complain about it - those that do will still turn up at the next festival and play even if the structure is the same.

If the casino announces that they are doing a festival with 5 minute levels and 1000 chips then rather than adjust my strategy i just wouldnt turn up, nor i doubt would many other people. The casino would think twice then about holding a festival with that same structure again.

I genuinely think that you should add a poll with the question:If you dont agree with the blind structure of a live tourney that you wanted to play, do you:

Play and say nothing

play and voice your concerns with the management

refuse to play

Because it seems that you've come back to the thread you created a couple of days ago about what to do in this situation and more importantly what others would do, Ive now heard all three possibilities credibly argued over the past couple of days and a poll might help you further gauge what those less inclined to post about the subject would do and get a broader idea of where the majority stands.

There's a tournament over in Drogheda in Ireland Red, maybe you should've come... ::)

The main reason I didn't do a poll is that most of the replies would come from people who don't usually play large field, two day events.

I talk to a lot of people who are actually at the venues and almost without exception they want longer clocks and slower structures.

What percentage of them that you know of have articulated this to event organisers or management though?

Very few Bolt, thats what I find so frustrating.

So if there are enough people who want the longer clocks and slower structures then why do you not all get together and agree to stop playing the events?

By continuing to play the festivals week in week out the casino's are still getting their profit and have an attitude of "if it aint broke - dont fix it" and therefore are unlikely to change.

With respect mat, do you really think there is the remotest chance of that ever happening?

So what was the outcome with these drunken & abusive types did the
management take the correct action, or where they allowed to continue.

I did see a manager have a word with one of them once, it had no effect and no penalties were imposed.

The one on Paul's table was allowed to continue , i believe he had warnings and not allowed anymore alcohol .

And I thought my table was bad...

Controversial subject - just right for my return!!

Firstly, the missing levels DID make a huge difference at the business end of the tourney, but as it was advertised well in advance, it didnt cause me any problems.

I played the 300 with the mindset to gather chips and to try and stay ahead of 30xBB - which I managed to do for most part, but when down to 13, the av stack was approx 10xBB and I moved in (for the 3rd consecutive time) on the button with QJ suited and the BB called with KJ.

As for the abusive player, he was not dealt with correctly in my opinion. The story of events went like this :

I got moved to a new table with a very healthy 37k (over 30xBB) and on this new table was a very drunk scouser (no offence to scousers meant).
Within 2 hands of seeing his drunken antics, I went and warned Danny that it was going to turn nasty, you could just see it.
He was killing the table (he had a massive 70k) and was making 4000 raises preflop and moving in on any raise. Making it VERY hard to play poker. I decided that I wasnt going to undo all of my good work on a 60 40 shot, so sat out of most hands. I did call once with AK but missed the flop and he moved all in. Twice after that I passed AK.
He continued to be VERY loud and got even more abusive calling every one a divvy c**t and telling everyone they were total s**t and he was a god of poker.
I must admit I was encouraging him slightly, by when he was making MASSIVE overbets and taking pots that it was a "good play" - this was obviously to trap him into giving me his chips.
He had 2 verbal warnings - in my mind he should of been ejected from the Casino at the first mention of the word c**t in an abusive manner to a player, but I counted at least 4 times this happened.
On one occasion, he did not notice someone had made a "normal" raise infront of him to 3500 and he proceeded to say "raise" 3500 . I politely pointed out to him that he now had to put 7000 into the pot as someone had raised infront of him. This he did not like and said he didnt want to play and it was unfair. I said he was more than welcome to ask for a ruling, but he reluctantly put in 7000 chips, calling me a c**t again as he did so.
Well when I looked down at my cards I found KK, and announced all in. The origional raiser also went all in and the scouser passed, again calling me a cheating c**t!
I won the pot and politely told him that those were the rules, and that I NEVER look at my cards until it is my turn to act. Again I let it go.
About 4 hands later he again makes it 3500 preflop and someone else moves all in (Greek Jack) . The scouser calls with KQ and Greek Jack had Q9 and spiked a 9. The scouser went mad calling him a divvy, and that he was now out to get that c**t. Greek Jack called Danny over and again he was given a warning (his final warning aparantly).
Well 4 hands later, someone else raised before him and he asked if the bloke had him covered. I replied politely "I think so" to which he replied "no he doesn't you divvy c**t"
After that hand was over, I was fuming and the whole card room heard me (so the cradroom managers must of heard it aswell) tell him (not very politely) that he was a total w****r and that was the VERY last time he would call me a c**t.
He proceded to donk of his remaining 40k pretty quickly and departed.

So there you have it.

An additional thought, I can see why (if) management were reluctant to remove said chap from the card room - he was not alone (about 5 of them I think) and although the other 5 were fine, I could see it all turning VERY nasty.

Cardroom manager - yet another job I would not like

I think I've played him........

One final word on the structure, it was not ideal (in my opinion) but I think it owuld of been fine had everyone agreed to giving 19th and 20th also £300 - 2 people objected

20 people came back for day 2, but without that saver deal, it slowed the game up immencely- taking almost 3 levels to see 2 people depart. And with 19 left it was hand for hand which in reality meant approx 15-20 minute levels for the amount of cards we saw.

With 13 left it was a total crapshoot, and I doubt if this will be played to a finish - I would guess on probably 5/6 making a deal - which I wouldnt blame them for doing

But the people who objected were quite within their right to object, I just dont think they fully understood the consequences.

Well if the players dont (and its their money that everyone is playing for) then why should the casino - they get their cut regardless.

Its the players who pay the money to play, they should be the ones who get together to get their voices heard.

p.s. i'm not posting things like this to drum up support for some kind of association - but everyone keeps complaining about "bad structures" but then doesnt do anything about it and still turns up to play the next festival.

Whilst you can use forums to get your point across - its not going to change anything with the bigwigs of the casinos. Actions speak louder than words.

I'll draw up a few picket signs for the next event :)up

Same thing happened to me in Blackpool last year M3Boy.  A scouser was also the one delivering the abuse there.  I wonder if it is the same person?

It doesn't bother me but I can see how it may offend others.

He should've been ejected after his first warning IMO.  Casinos have security to remove the lowest common denominators.

As for the other gripes.  Feet vote with.  I'm glad I gave it a miss now.

The original structure had those levels missing it was the manager that added them to "put bums on seats", had it been a sell out week after week i doubt that would happen.

So a reverse of Matts point works here, in trying to fill the room the structure is open to change.

A member of my brethren letting the side down (no wonder we scouse
boys get a bad name lol) but it begs belief why cardroom personal do not
evict these culprits after the first sign of abusive behaviour.

 It is most understandable that having to face the prospect of handing a
nasty customer or perhaps several of his mates is not worth the paycheck
at the end of the week, but with a professional manner and sensable
security staff i don't see the another option.

This type of thing went on in liverpool a few years back and it ruined the
game numbers dropped off and the value dissapeared, the management
where weak and the offenders where also mug punters on the tables so
that was another reason in there eyes not to take action.

Thing is these tourneys where £5-£10 events and although this type of
behaviour shouldn't have a price on it when people are paying a weeks pay
or more to some of us, surely the least we can expect for our money is
protection from foul mouthed disruptive players.

All the management have to do is bar them then they ain't comming back
to re offend otherwise they will never cure this problem, with respect you
can give warnings till your blue in the face but in my experience it is like
water on a ducks back to these people.

 Ok rant over ;grr;

            Best of it.
                   Neves.

the gentleman in question was drunk before the comp started. He had the highest pictched liverpudlian voice, like a Brookside actor on helium.

The funniest thing for me, thankfully not on his table, was that he was ranting and raving, rubbing down etc when Lucy Rokach was seated two to his left. Her look was well on the way to melting a polar ice cap or ten.

I agree too, the cardroom managers fudged their obligations towards the rest of the players with this idiot.

I also agree with RED about structures. I think, having had a stab at four of these during the week, that the problem is this:

there is play from levels 25/50 to 200/400 and often on final tables when stacks are 100,000 plus

However the problem comes in the middle game where the missing levels provide for little play and having to gamble prematurely to get in position for the final few tables.

One extra level would make all the difference

Interestingly fields of 170 plus, 8.30pm start were typically down to 50 by midnight as the jump to 200-400 took its toll on all the shorter stacks earlier than it might do in a mopre sympathetic structure.

getting down to 50 by midnight is in the casinos intrest that 120 players they have for there house games

remember poker is a loss leader for casinos they use it to draw people in to play the magic wheel

Ian this comp was originally 12000pts but he had no 25 chips, as soon as they came in he reduced the points to 8000 and added the levels, and it still doesnt sell out, it seats 120 but only got 69 runners. The comp that was changed was the £300 FO maybe after this pm

To his credit the format has been roughly adopted for the £20 FO but on a 30 min clock.


The abuse should deffo not be tolerated, and the fact that there was 5 of them shouldn't be a problem, thats what security is for.

Tom I am surprised you went and played as in another link you stated that due to the structure you would be giving it a miss, so you did in fact already know the structure.

As a side issue I cannot understand why the levels are missing!!

P.S. Welcome back M3boy, glad your back sir!! ;woohoo;

Oh to have been there...........foul mouthed players are a particular favourite of mine. All I would say is that they would not allow anybody to talk to a croupier like that

Obviously tournament structures should be within the remit of the amateur poker association to lodge complaints to casinos on behalf of the membership. Would you think instances like the casinos failure to act against abusive individuals should be a matter for the APA as well?   

The trouble with that is they have no durastiction whatsoever with casinos, this relates to the question myself and Dik were trying to get answered on the apat thread.
Richard, i was referring to that comp, the manager editted the structure as people on here asked for them, my point was that he did it because he wasn't full, maybe he wouldn't if it were?
Though i'd like to think he is willing to do this for his punters.

No organisation will have jurisdiction over card rooms and casinos other than the law and the gaming board, but a unified and well supported amateur player’s organisation could put a tremendous amount of pressure on these business to at least hear players grievances. Do you believe failure to maintain a civil playing environment is something that our association (I am an APA member) should be lodging complaints with the card room operator about?

I played at Walsall this week, which was my first experience of a Poker festival.  So although I have no other festival to compare against there were a couple of things that I thought could have been done better.

Firstly I won seat into the £500 freeze on tuesday and not knowing the procedure I asked one of the cardroom guys if I would be entered into the tournanment automatically.  I was told "yes" so imagine my surprise when the draw was made on Thurday night and my name was not on list.  I hastened over to the cardroom to find the other players who won a seat in my sat also asking the same question.  It took some 10 minutes to sort this out and then a re draw had to be made.  This additional delay, coupled with the late start to he comp (which I heard no communication about) seemed very amateur for a tournament with a £500 buy in.

I also agree with RED about the structures.  I went deep in the £200 freeze on Tuesday and was never above average chips after the 3rd level.  I was able to keep my stack at a M of between 7 and 10 but I only had 2 moves, all in or fold.  I reached the final table short stacked (M about 8) and the other stacks were quite similar, meaning very little play at the final table.  All decisions were made pre flop.  When we got to the final six players the high blinds and the close chip stacks combined with the top heavy prize distriution meant a deal looked attractive.  The six of us did a deal enabling us all to take roughly what 2nd would have won had we played on.

I don't want to appear negative as this has been the best week of my poker life.  But I thought these issues should be raised and hopefully things can improve in the future.

they frequently foget to enter satellite winners into the comp. did so again last night, half the field are sitting down and they have to redraw

Late starts? Never known Walsall or Luton to start a major comp on time. Blackpool under Yogi was different

No play? Every side event festival comp is like this for the majority of people post the 200-400 level...you need to win a key confrontation, a race or do an outdraw to progress to the business end unless you are chipped up early

It is my contention that this is why so  many people gamble early to get chipped up or get out, to avoid this one move poker that pervades the middle levels of these comps

I think in future I will not spend four days on such tourneys, and instead use the same buy in money to buy in direct to a main event and take one shot at it. 

Juristiction is largely measured in commercial terms by the large casino groups.  When the APA is in a position to fill their cardrooms week after week then you will find that we will have a significant influence in the way players are treated and in the quality of games they play. 

However, the APA will never acquire that power while players wait on the sidelines for something 'notable' to be achieved.  Until the players get fully behind the Association, its ability to influence the industry will be marginalised and nothing notable can be achieved. 

I know some of you are uncomfortable with the amount of focus we are putting on the Tour, but in the short term, while we organise and grow, this is one area where the APA can demonstrate a vision for the industry under a strong and united Association.  Great venues and structures, serious added value and publicity, and players getting the opportunity to enjoy a premium experience with low financial risk.

If we can prove ourselves commercially to the major casino groups, then local and regional tournaments will become a reality and at that point we will be in a position to enter legislative discussion in an authorative way.  I'm afraid stomping up and down outside the venue is simply not an option.  You will simply get banned.  When we have 20,000 members, a stomp might become a great deal more meaningful.

If you identify with the concerns highlighted in Tom and Paul's posts; and are still not a member of the APA, I would ask you to genuinely consider your reasons. 

Please bear in mind that the commercial company behind APAT have NOT sold 1 advert or struck 1 affiliate deal since launch in August.  That is despite having had over 100,000 visits to apat.com and having had plenty of offers to mail stuff to our members.  We have not spent one penny unwisely and everyone involved has invested a great deal emotionally and in many other ways. 

Perhaps the £5 / £10 membership fee is a barrier?  If this was not the only source of funding that the APA has, I would recommend to the management team that it be abolished in the morning. 

Regards,

Des.

Ok, I'm buckled in

Fallout alert, Fallout alert

Status: Yellow

I've got to send out a couple of thousand emails....I'll be back shortly  ;scarymoment;

Guess the film

Debbie does Dallas ??

Cheers guys for focusing on all the negatives of this festival. Makes my job worth while. To tired from all the hours ive put in our this week to write how disapointed i am to here see your comments. But Viva France as they say in rome.

Dani

P.s You have the well documented 150/300 level in tomorrows main event

That's unfair Dan, I don't call this focusing on all the negetives. I am the first to prase you guys usually, but It means nothing if I cant be honest when I think something is wrong.

Dani, PM sent m8

Mate, i refuse to go into all the things wrong in this post, i can only hope that when you're sober you will come back and correct this.

I'm plenty sober Ian, I can assure you.

Me fred's bin ijacked!

OMG!!! rotflmfao

gonna be a long night, me thinks

First Query


WTF??? You have your own cardrooms? Or are these APAT Endorsed cardrooms you are on about? Have you any APAT Endorsed cardrooms? How do they become endorsed?

As you are reading this DesD can we go through each point individually please?

How does APAT intend to do this week after week?

Can we take this to a new thread or even continue on the thread i asked questions on 3 weeks ago?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=16631.0

Richard,

There is no point in my going through this with you point by point for your late night amusement.   I'm clearly not going to convince you about our intentions and I have to accept that.

I have invited you to come and discuss the Association with Tony and I on a number of occasions, and you have declined thus far.  If you find time in your diary, then let me know and I will be happy to discuss the APA strategy in more detail.

Regards,

Des.

Sorry Tom....t'was not my intention  :(

I am extremely disappointed that you think this is for my amusement, I am not a forum Troll, I am genuinely concerned about the direction you are going with this and the hoodwink of an association, I have explained why i cannot come to London to Discuss this with you, and feel that the discussion should be available to everyone, as it affects the majority of users that post here. Why cant it be in the open?

Sorry Tom nor mine ;hide;

Comments like the above is why Richard. 

As I said previously, you have made up your mind and communicated your opinion of APAT on several UK forums throughout the last few months. 

I appreciate that Tony needs to respond back on the above thread, and I'm sure he will, but I do not think there is anything he or I, or anyone connected with APAT will say that will convince you that we are aiming for the same positive outcomes in the game as you are.

Unfortunately it will take scale to achieve some of those goals, and that takes time.

Regards,

Des.

All I want is to be proved wrong Des, but not getting any assurance?

As for the uk forums that I comment on, I think you will find that I have been informing people about it, not in a negative way either, so please dont try and make me out to be an arse!!!

The redeeming feature that APAT has got going for it, is the fact that when it comes to poker Tony and Richard are respected by myself and most of the poker community, however, you sir are a businessman and IMO have joined a poker bandwagon at one of the most crucial points needed by the industry.

Richard,

I agree with your sentiments on Tony and Richard entirely and you shouldn't forget that both have been extremely successful businessmen in the not too distant past - so that sort of background should not be considered a negative.  Quite how you think they could be involved in anything that was not 100% pro poker players is a mystery. 

As for myself, sure I work in business but I've played small stakes games in London for years and I played at the Rio in '05, so I'm not exactly a stranger jumping on the bandwagon. Although, I'm the first to admit, I'm still mr very ordinary at the table.

One last thing from me, and then I am leaving Tom to recover his thread...lets not forget that Tony Kendall is Chairman of the APA, not me, and I do not believe you will find a better individual to lead the Association during this formative period.

Regards,

Des.

Woah, hang on, I have never implied at any stage that they are doing this other than for the good of poker.

I also 100% concur that Tony is the best man to chair the association, i am just curious as to when and what the association will do, as all i have seen is the Tour.

From a previous point, "I do not think there is anything he or I, or anyone connected with APAT will say that will convince you that we are aiming for the same positive outcomes in the game as you are." How wrong you are, I am begging to be convinced.

I was just trying to get an idea of how people viewed the role of the APA and was certainly not looking for a row. When I joined I envisaged the association, to use a business analogy as a 'casino user group'. Using the weight of membership to apply pressure on the casinos and card rooms of the country to satisfy the customers issues. I thought the incidences Tom mentioned should very much be the within the remit of the APA and not just tournament structures and levies inflicted on players and I wondered what others thought. 

Fallout Staus Upgraded to Red


Off out for the day, enjoy!

Leave me out of it.

You can go back down to Fallout status "Yellow"

Firstly can I apologise to Dani V and Red for hijaking thread, it would have been nice to have it on a different thread.

However, my Girlfriend and Best friend have said that I am coming over too strong with this, and that my personality changes when I get going on this, and i agree with them that i am like a bear with a sore head when APAT is mentioned. It clearly winds me up.

For all the people that pm'd me, your on your own now, it's your battle as you are the players it will affect, I will be wishing APAT the best of luck, Tony I wish you well for the association, please get it going ASAP as the industry needs it, I just really hope it will be influencial and you can get the large chains on side.

DesD please don't forget it is an ASSOCIATION and tour

Best of luck with it guys

It's been emotional!!