blonde poker forum

For those who play their single table tournaments all tight at the beginning, and then start making moves when the dynamic shifts and the blinds get larger.

Do you favour a gradual loosening on starting hand requirements, as it becomes more and more necessary?

Or do you prefer a sudden shift from one style to the other?

Personally I go with the sudden shift, not got time for a long post as I'm off out for lunch. Will post more later....

In general its a good idea to alter your preflop strategy slightly for every player that gets knocked off, but your approach in general should be reactionary as every table is different. On level one I actually play quite loose passive preflop because there is huge value in seeing lots of cheap flops, and taking advantage of the fact that many players don't want to commit too much of their stack early. It's not going to put a huge dent in my stack and the vaue of getting a chip lead early is huge. After that I generally play quite tight unless the table is playing weak, in which case I'll just keep applying pressure when I have position. By the time we get shorthanded I know which blinds to atttack and would have a different gear to be in for each hand depending on my position and the players involved. A lot of people think there are 2 gears to be in for STTs but in fact you should have about 6.

The big difference between sites on these is huge. Blind structures, hands or clock per level and height of buy in, which can mean (crypto) you get more starting chips at a higher level.

Personally, I always treat around 20% of my starting stack as play chips. I see plenty of flops, steal what I am allowed to and see what I can accumulate. I try not to get pot stuck without a big hand. Providing that you have enough chips to make your opponent think and not make an auto call, then rocking up if you lose that 20% is not a problem as you can still get into push or pass mode when the blinds increase. So many players are so passive, that the key is strength and getting them in first. As the blinds go up, then get em in first and keep getting em in!

In answer to the original specific question I'd say that I tend to go with the sudden shift option.  The timing would usually be when blinds reach 100/200 or 150/300 and are worth winning.  It's amazing how many players seem not to notice the blinds have just gone up and they will still fold as if they are at a low level.

Actually, thinking about it, after this short burst of aggression I quite often then go back into tight mode for a time.  Hopefully my play/steals/reraises so far have left me comfortable enough to watch the carnage that tends to take place between players shortly after this point of the game!

Whilst this is my general answer, obviously ultimately it can change dependant on number of players left, chip stacks, player style etc etc

I think a sudden gear change has to be the way to go. After all the tight early / aggresive later strategy is all about building up a picture of your play , or at least telegraphing that you use super tight hand selection to your opponents. You trade on your early tightness to pick up blinds and dead money later on . If you gradually increase you aggressiveness then your oppo's may not notice, and therefore not give you enough credit for you "hand".

On a related matter, I am not convinced that this strategy is the way to go . If you ask yourself where your edge comes from (in general) then surley it comes from playing better than your opponents ? So if you feel you can stand up against the field you should want to play more pots with them so your edge can be maximised?

a) Yes
b) Yes

I mention it coz someone asked me the other day at what blind level it is best to start "playing" in STTs. I sent them this reply.


It's fluid, depends on a whole bunch of factors.

The main ones being how many are left, and the size of your stack.

How many are left

If theres a full table, I might start playing at level 4 or 5 (150/300)
The blinds come around slower, so you can afford to wait a little longer.

If we have a lot of players out early, and we have 4/5 players left, I mihgt start playing at level 3 (50/100)

Size of your stack

If you've already doubled up, you don't need to start playing until you're in danger of slipping into 4th chip position. Sometimes this will take yu into the money without doing anything.

If you've lost a few chips early on, maybe by playing JJ or AK or other such pisch (stop doing that) then you'll have to start it up earlier.




If you've started playing and one of these factors changes (like you come into a load of chips) it's not against the law to tighten up again.

The dynamic changes from hand to hand in STTs, you need to keep on top of it.

Good luck

The thing is though, I'm also a fan of the sudden shift, for reasons Jezza mentioned.

Ideally you want to get in a few blind steals straight away when you shift from tight. Before anyone realises you've changed gears, you have the free chips nice and safe in your stack.

The question is though, can the two maxims co-exist?

When best to push may be an arbitary line, but after a succesful steal, the dynamic is different (you have more chips bascially) so a push isn't as necessary. From the sudden shift point of view though, now may still be the best time to get in one or two more steals.

Tank

1st hand of a 9 handed STT you have 67s on the button , there are 4 limpers . What is your move?
( I think I know the answer)

Jezza; I know this was directed at Tank, but doesn't everyone limp here with atc? 67s is much more than I need.

I rarely advocate limpingh, I like to enter pots with a raise if it has not been opened before me, but here it is usually 15 from a minimum 1000 chips and I couldn't pass for anything in position.

Pass.

Pass KQ, QJ etc as well.

Jezza I think you are mistaking STTs for poker games. The skill factor has little to do with correct poker and everything to do with correct strategy and application of game theory.

I think Tank passess here all day, I think he passess JJ too.

I pass of course.

Depends on the structure and the payout thuogh naturally.

If it's a slow slow structure or winner takes all payout, my style won't work as well and playing more hands early on might be a better way to go.
I don't buy into these kinda comps though. Pass pass pass, once every day of the week and twice on a Sunday.


67s is a hand that builds tempting looking draws. A good way to leak a lot of chips that are more valuable than the ones you might win, aswell as leaving you with a stack which is low enough to get called when you'd rather it wouldn't.

Shhh, don't tell anyone. I'll stop getting payed off.

I think my range is slightly larger than tanks.

Basically I'm playing with very few hands that will not stand a re-raise. I will limp in position with pocket pairs and sometimes suited aces, but I will only draw to flushes if it is very cheap.

Not me

Being miserly with my chips post flop, if I got involved left right and centre, my looser opponents would have a big edge on me.

I'm less likely to make a bluff or value bet when it's viable, and less likely to call my opponents bluff. Being right most of the time isn't enough. I want my stack intact, 100% of the time. Resultantly, I'm so keen to keep ahold of my chips, that I don't win any of these pots.
The biggest fish in the world still has an edge on me post flop early on in STTs, I'm not just tight weak, I'm weak weak, so what do I do?

The solution is not to play any of these pots where I can get in "cheap"
I still do ok when I overbet big pairs, (NOTE: JJ is not a big pair) the tournament value is there often enough to pay me off.

A fringe advantage of this style is that it lends itself to mutli-tabling well. You can concentrate on your games that are approaching crucial stages, without having to worry about those in their infancy, as you arn't playing any hands.

As well, the obvious, but still often overlooked, advantage of having built up a "tight" image, and how this helps you avoid calls later on.

 ;iagree;

It's not that STTs are skill-less affairs when you play in this style (as I'm often accused of)

It's just that a lot of the skills involved to succeed are far removed from those that we all came to know of as poker when we first picked up a deck of cards. You can get good push-botters and bad push-botters.

Possibly why it's tough for me to shift between playing STTs to playing cash or multis. It becomes second nature to pass over many oppurtunities that look like "good poker"

We're getting into general STT talk here, I'm still interested in discussing the philosophy of push-botting....  :)


If anyone has any more thoughts?

If my stack is deep enough and dependant on my oppoonents I will start to steal with more standard raises when the blinds are big enough to hurt them and laying down to a re-raise won't hurt me too much. If they are very short and I'll be priced in to call the re-raise then I'm either passing or setting them in.

Depending on my opponents and the relative chip distribution I will still try to put pressure on certain players when I am in 2nd or 3rd place and not yet endangered by the blinds. This means that I  may finish 4th a bit more often but I will also get a few more 1st places.

Apart from that tanks previous answer, to his own question, pretty much sums it up.

 ;ashamed;

I don't think you can beat the $1K turbo's with perfect pushbotting. Need to start playing 76s early in order to try to chip up a bit imo.

I have just moved back to cash from stt's mainly beacuse the varience i was experiencing in the turbos was really doing my head in.

As for the original question i think my strategy was to generally gradually loosen as the blinds moved up and the players lessened. Table dynamics are important and also is the amount of chips you have accumulated early meaning you can wait for a longer, or sometimeA use the fact that pushbotting regulars have awkward stack size (10-15bb's) to take advantage of them.

Essentially i use to play very passive and limp alot in position in the early stages trying to hit monster flops and i mean proper monsters (sets, straights, nut flushes etc).

Then tighten up until it came to pushbotting which i basically refined using ICM with abit of help from SNGPT.

They are probably the easiest form of poker to master as essentially once stack sizes got small compared to the blinds, you can in affect play perfect poker by pushbotting.

 ;iagree;

everybody seems to play so tight. i normally play 6 seater SNGs so my range is probably alot bigger than all of you that play 10 seater ones but 67s looks like a monster lol.

It's more about opportunites, rather than hands. If I've played like a rock up until the final 6 players, and I see a couple of limpers trying to see a cheap flop for say 100, then I'll move my stack in with whatever hand I have.

In answer to the question - A sudden shift in gears.

The 67 situation would be a pass. You often see players calling a lot of cheap flops, which they miss, or worse, get a bit of and can't let go. It doesn't take many calls before you have dented your stack enough to get to situation where you have to push. I prefer not to waste chips at this stage.

In STTs MY opinion is that you cant win anything early, only lose. The blinds are so small that the risk/reward ratio isn't worth it.

Obvious considerations are the blinds/oppos stacks/ ave etc.

I will also tighten up again if I have the chips near the bubble, again no reason to waste chips calling a short stack.

with regards to the 67s situation, if its correct to play tight and fold, and the good players know it, what is the standard of person left on the table that is playing loose? and if they are the ones playing loose, Id be pretty keen to play a few pots with them. In terms of pushbotting/end game play, if you call 2/3 times and miss each time, you aren't putting your stack in jeopardy early on, but you are getting yourself in spots to get a big stack early on and start dominating the table early doors.

I haven't played a sng for a long time, but it seems that more and more people are figuring out end game and playing tight early, so early doors seems to be pretty much the best time to try and accumulate chips assuming the good players are the ones folding and the bad players are the ones getting active in the early levels.

good post.

This is what I mean when I say where does your edge come from? If it comes from only playing the push game better than everyone then you are missing out on a lot of profitable opportunities early doors.

I don't think the early levels last long enough to make playing these hands profitable. That is they maybe profitable in terms of net chips gained/lost over a number of tourneys but the value of the chips lost is greater. You are not playing very deep even in the first or second levels so you have very few hands to take advantage of your superior postflop play. How often are you going to happy with all your chips in the pot holding 67?

I think a lot of the edge comes from play just before the blinds make push/fold optimal. Restealing and picking up pots from the blinds at this stage is very important. The blinds are not always big enough once the bubble has to make push/fold tactics optimal, particularly when heads up. There is room for a bit of poker to be played even if it is of the short-stack variety.

There are are still lots of very poor players playing STTs particularly at $100 the standard is noticably better at $200.

I play at the $50 level, and there are usually plenty people playing loose early on. 6 or 7 out of 9 would play 67s in that spot.

If I went to games where only 1 or 2 would, yes, I'd have to loosen up. As long as my STT games are still loose though, tight will always be right.


I think the majority of my edge comes from the loose players, rather than playing better push poker than the other tight players.

Agree, there are plenty of loose players to profit from.

Jezza, I don't think it's a case of good players folding and bad players calling, more a variation on styles.
I prefer the tight early/ sudden gear change later as that is what is pfofitable for me.

I never said it was.  I am just trying to get to the bottom of both styles of play so I can play either depending on the table. I don't doubt that both styles require skill to play well and both styles can also reap a profit.

I find it of note that, although the two styles are fundamentally opposite at the beginning of the tournament, they both converge to play the same near the end.

It's like a bad piece of Belgian poetry.

Please provide an example.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=17465.msg357615#msg357615

but with choccy instead of ducky

Can you calculate the value of playing style?

ie I will get called by a wider range of hands as I have been more active, but I will also get paid if I have a hand. Whereas the tight style can win pots without contest but will only get called by strong hands.

So based on previous action when the tournament is in the endstages and the styles merge which is the most profitable.

I am rambling, off for coco and a think

Empiral obvservations are probably the best way to decide which one's best.

Play different ones for a bit, see which is making the most, and also which you feel more comfortable with.

Probably tough to say which method is superior, as it'll be a different answer for everyone.

I limp 67s on the button in level 1 of an STT with multiple limpers without a second's thought. I also think that passing KQ in this spot is ridiculous.

Two years ago the ultra tight early, ultra aggressive late style was enough to clean up in STT's, not anymore though (at the higher buyins), if you play this way against decent players they will know exactly what you are doing and adjust by simply not paying you off early and widening their calling ranges against you late.

I can see the argument of playing like this if 8-tabling or whatever but in terms of money won per STT it is not the way forward. Hourly rate is perhaps a different matter though.

**Looks up empiral**  Ah yes I agree. I don't think either method is superior per se and I think it is hugely important to play not only at levels where you feel comfortable but but to develop a style you feel comfortable using too.
Do you make notes on players Tank or are there too many tables on the go ? As the standard of play improves which generally means tighter play do you think you will need to significantly adapt your style to keep winning? Also do you worry that you will get "found out" and people will adapt to nullify your edge? Are there enough bad players to keep you in tatties and beer?

There are enough bad players even at $100 and $200 that keep paying me off...

The money is coming from the bad players it's just a matter of which good players get it, if I'm not the biggest winner in the games I play then it must be very close. My ROI has dropped slightly over the last 18 months but I put this down to playing more tables at higher levels rather than people catching on to my strategy.

The main advantage of the ultra-agressive endgame is that there is no effective defence, widening your calling range hurts the caller as much as the bettor, good players know this.

EDIT

That seems a bit arrogant, I'm not saying that I play perfectly or that there is only one way to play. A lot of my edge comes from knowing my opponents and I do mix it up a bit in the middle and end stages. I play what I think is the best way to get the maximum out of the games I play in, different games require different methods depending on opponents and structures.

I think I spelled empirical wrong. Doesn't help if people are looking it up, sorry 'bout that.  ;ashamed;


Where I can. Most of the time I only play four nowadays, and have plenty time to make notes. The most valuable (IMO) is knowing whether someone is going to call you with their ace rag after they limp.


This hand will answer that question better than I could.

Single-Table Tournament
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
$50 - NL - 9 Seats 13888981-8 Holdem No Limit 20/40
 Hand Start.
 Seat 1 : Son0fZeus has $2,000
 Seat 2 : darenp1 has $1,980
 Seat 3 : whip1140 has $1,920
 Seat 4 : Crazy Ivan has $1,920
 Seat 5 : bonkytwonk has $2,120
 Seat 6 : garryl34 has $2,320
 Seat 7 : Kengo has $2,240
 Seat 8 : monopoly7 has $1,860
 Seat 9 : Depaor70 has $1,640
 monopoly7 is the dealer.
Depaor70 posted small blind.
 Son0fZeus posted big blind.
 Game [8] started with 9 players.
 Dealing Hole Cards.
 Seat 1 : Son0fZeus has Kd Ks
 darenp1 folded.
 whip1140 folded.
 Crazy Ivan folded.
 bonkytwonk folded.
 garryl34 folded.
Kengo called 40 and raised 160
 Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 1 min. 
 monopoly7 folded.
 Depaor70 folded.
 Son0fZeus called 160 and raised 640
Kengo called 640
 Dealing flop.
 Board cards [9c 6s 4d]
Son0fZeus bet 1,160 and is All-in
 Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 1 min. 
 Kengo has 10 seconds to respond.
Kengo called 1,160
 Showdown!
 Seat 1 : Son0fZeus has Kd Ks
 Seat 7 : Kengo has Qh  Aspades
 Board cards [9c 6s 4d 6c 2s]
 Son0fZeus wins 4,020 with Two Pair: Kings and Sixes   
 Kengo : nh
 Hand is over.
 

If the well ever does dry up, I'll just have to find something else to do.

Lol can i add an example please tank?

***** Hand History for Game 5487833364 *****
NL Texas Hold'em 55 Buy-in Trny: 30669173 Level: 1   Blinds(20/40) - Thursday, December 07, 08:28:49 ET 2006
Table Speed #1304553 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: altinlala ( 2000 )
Seat 9: HatWin007 ( 2000 )
Seat 10: dreamkiller_ ( 2000 )
Seat 6: BPRookieITB ( 2000 )
Seat 7: madgreek777 ( 2000 )
Seat 8: salut1 ( 2000 )
Seat 5: SONICBOOM7 ( 2000 )
Seat 1: johny9111 ( 2000 )
Seat 4: xc9964c ( 2000 )
Seat 3: BigChaim ( 2000 )
Trny: 30669173 Level: 1
 Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BPRookieITB [  Ah Ac ]
dreamkiller_ folds
johny9111 folds
altinlala folds
BigChaim calls [40]
xc9964c folds
SONICBOOM7 folds
BPRookieITB raises [160]
madgreek777 folds
salut1 folds
HatWin007 folds
BigChaim calls [120]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 5s, 6h ]
BigChaim bets [160]
BPRookieITB raises [480]
BigChaim calls [320]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
BigChaim bets [440]
BPRookieITB is all-In  [1360]
>You have options at Speed #1304241 Table!.
BigChaim is all-In  [920]
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
BigChaim shows [ 6s, 2c ]a pair of Sixes.
BPRookieITB shows [ Ah, Ac ]a pair of Aces.
BPRookieITB wins 4060 chips from  the main pot  with a pair of Aces.
BigChaim finished in 10 place.


First hand this one, of a $55 sng on party.

Ok heres one, how do you play your AK in the middle-ish level. 50/100.. no info. Party SNG $55

***** Hand History for Game 5488039017 *****
NL Texas Hold'em 55 Buy-in Trny: 30670315 Level: 3   Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, December 07, 10:34:29 ET 2006
Table Speed #1304781 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: PIPPO1975 ( 2350 )
Seat 3: leeCloo ( 4050 )
Seat 4: my_number_245 ( 2020 )
Seat 6: strelok666 ( 1670 )
Seat 7: AKnightOwl ( 1860 )
Seat 9: Lube_Al_Anal ( 1840 )
Seat 10: drmengele222 ( 2580 )
Seat 8: BPRookieITB ( 1790 )
Seat 5: Attilarex ( 1840 )
Trny: 30670315 Level: 3
 Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BPRookieITB [  Kc Ad ]
PIPPO1975 did not respond in time
PIPPO1975 folds
leeCloo folds
my_number_245 folds
Attilarex calls [100]
strelok666 folds
AKnightOwl raises [400]
BPRookieITB????

With no info whatso ever, i'd fold, but then i make a rock look loose at times.

How long till the next level?

If this level has just begun then most times I'll call and take a flop. If the level is about to end then most times I'll push.

Im with wardonkey im shoving this you are ahead of his range unless he is a super rock and we have loads of fold equity.

I'd pump it with less chips, or with higher blinds.

At that stage, with that stack though, I'd be as likely to fold as anything else.