STT question

[jezza777]

Tank

1st hand of a 9 handed STT you have 67s on the button , there are 4 limpers . What is your move?
( I think I know the answer)

Pass.

Pass KQ, QJ etc as well.


I pass KQ and QJ here but not lower connectors or one gap connectors siuted or otherwise. I just think you are passing up far too many opportunities by playing supertight early on . I see that poker at its base is a struggle for the Antes and when they are low there is no point in geting involved but I dont like to give away too much edge and thats what I think Tanks style does.
What hands do you play on the 1st level then War? Any?

BTW I am not at all trying to disparage anyones game here , I have the utmost respect for Tank and War . I am just trying to understand the strategy fully and develop my own understanding of the stt arena.

Jezza I think you are mistaking STTs for poker games. The skill factor has little to do with correct poker and everything to do with correct strategy and application of game theory.

[Wardonkey]

I think my range is slightly larger than tanks.

Basically I'm playing with very few hands that will not stand a re-raise. I will limp in position with pocket pairs and sometimes suited aces, but I will only draw to flushes if it is very cheap.

[thetank]

Jezza; I know this was directed at Tank, but doesn't everyone limp here with atc? 67s is much more than I need.

I rarely advocate limpingh, I like to enter pots with a raise if it has not been opened before me, but here it is usually 15 from a minimum 1000 chips and I couldn't pass for anything in position.

Not me

Being miserly with my chips post flop, if I got involved left right and centre, my looser opponents would have a big edge on me.

I'm less likely to make a bluff or value bet when it's viable, and less likely to call my opponents bluff. Being right most of the time isn't enough. I want my stack intact, 100% of the time. Resultantly, I'm so keen to keep ahold of my chips, that I don't win any of these pots.
The biggest fish in the world still has an edge on me post flop early on in STTs, I'm not just tight weak, I'm weak weak, so what do I do?

The solution is not to play any of these pots where I can get in "cheap"
I still do ok when I overbet big pairs, (NOTE: JJ is not a big pair) the tournament value is there often enough to pay me off.

A fringe advantage of this style is that it lends itself to mutli-tabling well. You can concentrate on your games that are approaching crucial stages, without having to worry about those in their infancy, as you arn't playing any hands.

As well, the obvious, but still often overlooked, advantage of having built up a "tight" image, and how this helps you avoid calls later on.

[thetank]

Jezza I think you are mistaking STTs for poker games. The skill factor has little to do with correct poker and everything to do with correct strategy and application of game theory.

 

It's not that STTs are skill-less affairs when you play in this style (as I'm often accused of)

It's just that a lot of the skills involved to succeed are far removed from those that we all came to know of as poker when we first picked up a deck of cards. You can get good push-botters and bad push-botters.

Possibly why it's tough for me to shift between playing STTs to playing cash or multis. It becomes second nature to pass over many oppurtunities that look like "good poker"

[thetank]

We're getting into general STT talk here, I'm still interested in discussing the philosophy of push-botting.... 

The thing is though, I'm also a fan of the sudden shift, for reasons Jezza mentioned.

Ideally you want to get in a few blind steals straight away when you shift from tight. Before anyone realises you've changed gears, you have the free chips nice and safe in your stack.

The question is though, can the two maxims co-exist?

When best to push may be an arbitary line, but after a succesful steal, the dynamic is different (you have more chips bascially) so a push isn't as necessary. From the sudden shift point of view though, now may still be the best time to get in one or two more steals.

If anyone has any more thoughts?

[Wardonkey]

If my stack is deep enough and dependant on my oppoonents I will start to steal with more standard raises when the blinds are big enough to hurt them and laying down to a re-raise won't hurt me too much. If they are very short and I'll be priced in to call the re-raise then I'm either passing or setting them in.

Depending on my opponents and the relative chip distribution I will still try to put pressure on certain players when I am in 2nd or 3rd place and not yet endangered by the blinds. This means that I  may finish 4th a bit more often but I will also get a few more 1st places.

Apart from that tanks previous answer, to his own question, pretty much sums it up.

[thetank]

Apart from that tanks previous answer, to his own question

 

[byronkincaid]

I don't think you can beat the $1K turbo's with perfect pushbotting. Need to start playing 76s early in order to try to chip up a bit imo.

[Longy]

I have just moved back to cash from stt's mainly beacuse the varience i was experiencing in the turbos was really doing my head in.

As for the original question i think my strategy was to generally gradually loosen as the blinds moved up and the players lessened. Table dynamics are important and also is the amount of chips you have accumulated early meaning you can wait for a longer, or sometimeA use the fact that pushbotting regulars have awkward stack size (10-15bb's) to take advantage of them.

Essentially i use to play very passive and limp alot in position in the early stages trying to hit monster flops and i mean proper monsters (sets, straights, nut flushes etc).

Then tighten up until it came to pushbotting which i basically refined using ICM with abit of help from SNGPT.

They are probably the easiest form of poker to master as essentially once stack sizes got small compared to the blinds, you can in affect play perfect poker by pushbotting.

[dan]

I don't think you can beat the $1K turbo's with perfect pushbotting. Need to start playing 76s early in order to try to chip up a bit imo.

 

everybody seems to play so tight. i normally play 6 seater SNGs so my range is probably alot bigger than all of you that play 10 seater ones but 67s looks like a monster lol.

[snoopy1239]

For those who play their single table tournaments all tight at the beginning, and then start making moves when the dynamic shifts and the blinds get larger.

Do you favour a gradual loosening on starting hand requirements, as it becomes more and more necessary?

Or do you prefer a sudden shift from one style to the other?

It's more about opportunites, rather than hands. If I've played like a rock up until the final 6 players, and I see a couple of limpers trying to see a cheap flop for say 100, then I'll move my stack in with whatever hand I have.

[vegaslover]

In answer to the question - A sudden shift in gears.

The 67 situation would be a pass. You often see players calling a lot of cheap flops, which they miss, or worse, get a bit of and can't let go. It doesn't take many calls before you have dented your stack enough to get to situation where you have to push. I prefer not to waste chips at this stage.

In STTs MY opinion is that you cant win anything early, only lose. The blinds are so small that the risk/reward ratio isn't worth it.

Obvious considerations are the blinds/oppos stacks/ ave etc.

I will also tighten up again if I have the chips near the bubble, again no reason to waste chips calling a short stack.

[totalise]

with regards to the 67s situation, if its correct to play tight and fold, and the good players know it, what is the standard of person left on the table that is playing loose? and if they are the ones playing loose, Id be pretty keen to play a few pots with them. In terms of pushbotting/end game play, if you call 2/3 times and miss each time, you aren't putting your stack in jeopardy early on, but you are getting yourself in spots to get a big stack early on and start dominating the table early doors.

I haven't played a sng for a long time, but it seems that more and more people are figuring out end game and playing tight early, so early doors seems to be pretty much the best time to try and accumulate chips assuming the good players are the ones folding and the bad players are the ones getting active in the early levels.

[jezza777]

with regards to the 67s situation, if its correct to play tight and fold, and the good players know it, what is the standard of person left on the table that is playing loose? and if they are the ones playing loose, Id be pretty keen to play a few pots with them. In terms of pushbotting/end game play, if you call 2/3 times and miss each time, you aren't putting your stack in jeopardy early on, but you are getting yourself in spots to get a big stack early on and start dominating the table early doors.

I haven't played a sng for a long time, but it seems that more and more people are figuring out end game and playing tight early, so early doors seems to be pretty much the best time to try and accumulate chips assuming the good players are the ones folding and the bad players are the ones getting active in the early levels.

good post.

This is what I mean when I say where does your edge come from? If it comes from only playing the push game better than everyone then you are missing out on a lot of profitable opportunities early doors.

[Wardonkey]

I don't think the early levels last long enough to make playing these hands profitable. That is they maybe profitable in terms of net chips gained/lost over a number of tourneys but the value of the chips lost is greater. You are not playing very deep even in the first or second levels so you have very few hands to take advantage of your superior postflop play. How often are you going to happy with all your chips in the pot holding 67?

I think a lot of the edge comes from play just before the blinds make push/fold optimal. Restealing and picking up pots from the blinds at this stage is very important. The blinds are not always big enough once the bubble has to make push/fold tactics optimal, particularly when heads up. There is room for a bit of poker to be played even if it is of the short-stack variety.

There are are still lots of very poor players playing STTs particularly at $100 the standard is noticably better at $200.