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Title: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: booder on December 15, 2006, 04:30:32 PM just wondering if any of you cash specialists would play this different ? i have not been playing cash long so any constructive advice / criticism welcome
jeneum4 like so many players that i have encountered is quite capable of reraising preflop with nothing. did i extract the maximum or should i have pushed on the turn risking losing my customer Game #2788253263: Hold'em NL ($1/$2) - 2006/12/15 - 15:24:55 (UK) Table "King" Seat 5 is the button. Seat 1: jackmoor ($1032.25 in chips) Seat 2: Karaboo ($371.50 in chips) Seat 3: Horal ($206 in chips) Seat 4: LiveWire ($211.25 in chips) Seat 5: Bengun001 ($235.09 in chips) Seat 6: jeneum4 ($198 in chips) jeneum4: posts small blind $1 jackmoor: posts big blind $2 ----- HOLE CARDS ----- dealt to Karaboo [9s 9c] Karaboo: raises to $6 Horal: folds LiveWire: folds Bengun001: calls $6 jeneum4: raises to $20 jackmoor: folds Karaboo: calls $14 Bengun001: calls $14 ----- FLOP ----- [9d 7h 9h] jeneum4: bets $50 Karaboo: calls $50 Bengun001: folds ----- TURN ----- [9d 7h 9h][5h] jeneum4: checks Karaboo: checks ----- RIVER ----- [9d 7h 9h 5h][Jd] jeneum4: checks Karaboo: bets $52 jeneum4: calls $52 ----- SHOW DOWN ----- Karaboo: shows [9s 9c] (Four of a kind, Nines, Jack high) jeneum4: mucks hand [As Ah] Karaboo collected $263 from Main pot ----- SUMMARY ----- Total pot $266 Main pot $263 Rake $3 Board [9d 7h 9h 5h Jd] Seat 1: jackmoor (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: Karaboo showed [9s 9c] and won ($263) with Four of a kind, Nines, Jack high Seat 3: Horal folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: LiveWire folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Bengun001 (button) folded on the Flop Seat 6: jeneum4 (small blind) mucked [As Ah] Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: boldie on December 15, 2006, 04:37:29 PM I probably would have reraised the flop. he won't take you for a 9, let alone pocket 9's, after your pre-flop raise, and might even reraise you all-in there thinking you have a pocket pair and must be scared of the FD or you're going for the FD . The third heart is a killer for you...a shame that came down as otherwise he might have done his dosh in. Now he's scared of the flush....a shame but stilla nice pot.
Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: tantrum on December 15, 2006, 04:58:06 PM Quote I probably would have reraised the flop. he won't take you for a 9, let alone pocket 9's, after your pre-flop raise, and might even reraise you all-in there thinking you have a pocket pair and must be scared of the FD or you're going for the FD . . No way this guy is going to put booder on quads. re-rasing pre-flop would end up in a preflop war where booder would have to fold. Depending on your image (what are you likely to call with are you a chaser or not) the question is whether he calls you on the turn, and could you bet a bit more on the river. not many people are so easily persuaded to fold their overpairs so it does depend on your opposition. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: Sheriff Fatman on December 15, 2006, 05:01:33 PM With hindsight, having seen his hand, you could probably have got more out of him by betting the turn, given that he has the Ahrt in his hands. However, you don't know this at the time and against a 'typical' distribution of hands you'd probably expect him to fold to a bet on the turn, given that your hand is so huge and the board is 'scary'.
Don't beat yourself up too much about it. I think seeing his hand has affected you, but probably 9 times out of 10 in this situation you'll get a fold to any bet, on the turn or river. I think you played it fine. Sheriff Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: boldie on December 16, 2006, 05:45:21 PM With hindsight, having seen his hand, you could probably have got more out of him by betting the turn, given that he has the Ahrt in his hands. However, you don't know this at the time and against a 'typical' distribution of hands you'd probably expect him to fold to a bet on the turn, given that your hand is so huge and the board is 'scary'. Don't beat yourself up too much about it. I think seeing his hand has affected you, but probably 9 times out of 10 in this situation you'll get a fold to any bet, on the turn or river. I think you played it fine. Sheriff why not just reraise the flop.,..you've made quads and he won't take you for them...He probably won't even take you for trips. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: booder on December 16, 2006, 06:01:02 PM With hindsight, having seen his hand, you could probably have got more out of him by betting the turn, given that he has the Ahrt in his hands. However, you don't know this at the time and against a 'typical' distribution of hands you'd probably expect him to fold to a bet on the turn, given that your hand is so huge and the board is 'scary'. Don't beat yourself up too much about it. I think seeing his hand has affected you, but probably 9 times out of 10 in this situation you'll get a fold to any bet, on the turn or river. I think you played it fine. Sheriff why not just reraise the flop.,..you've made quads and he won't take you for them...He probably won't even take you for trips. i didnt reraise on the flop,as he could well have had AK and i lose my customer.i was hoping to get at least one other bet out of him and by just calling i give him a turn card to try and improve his hand further.as it happened a heart probably killed any major action and my bet on the end is small enough for him to call with an overpair ,or for him to move all in if he thinks he has me beat. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: boldie on December 16, 2006, 06:02:34 PM With hindsight, having seen his hand, you could probably have got more out of him by betting the turn, given that he has the Ahrt in his hands. However, you don't know this at the time and against a 'typical' distribution of hands you'd probably expect him to fold to a bet on the turn, given that your hand is so huge and the board is 'scary'. Don't beat yourself up too much about it. I think seeing his hand has affected you, but probably 9 times out of 10 in this situation you'll get a fold to any bet, on the turn or river. I think you played it fine. Sheriff why not just reraise the flop.,..you've made quads and he won't take you for them...He probably won't even take you for trips. i didnt reraise on the flop,as he could well have had AK and i lose my customer.i was hoping to get at least one other bet out of him and by just calling i give him a turn card to try and improve his hand further.as it happened a heart probably killed any major action and my bet on the end is small enough for him to call with an overpair ,or for him to move all in if he thinks he has me beat. fair point Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: GrannyDee on December 17, 2006, 01:00:14 AM I would re-raise allin on that the flop. The way your opponent played the hand pre-flop indicates a big pocket and by raising allin your hand is disguised as I believe your opponent is much more likely to put you on a semi-bluff or an overpair than a nine or indeed quads in this case.
Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: theplayer_uk on December 17, 2006, 12:07:37 PM Preflop can be a fold sometimes, flop is the easiest call ever, bet turn.
Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: The Baron on December 17, 2006, 06:57:30 PM With the pre flop action the only customer you are going to lose by raising this flop is AK unless he really has junk, but I think this can be discounted by his post flop bet of $50.
So IMO a raise on the flop will work most of the time except the odd player who has AK. I think it's worth the risk though as more often than not you'll "stack" the guy with the overpair and this is a winning play in the long run IMO. I would definately bet the turn after his check, some small like 1/3 to 1/2 pot hoping for a raise but wanting a least a flush draw's call and I would value bet the river as you did. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: NoflopsHomer on December 17, 2006, 09:10:57 PM I move in on the flop, if you call, he's slowing down even if an A or K comes which isn't that likely. A flat call looks scary, that's why you should move in, how can AA, KK and QQ pass? They can't because why would you move in with a lock hand there?
Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: theplayer_uk on December 18, 2006, 01:45:14 AM I move in on the flop, if you call, he's slowing down even if an A or K comes which isn't that likely. A flat call looks scary, that's why you should move in, how can AA, KK and QQ pass? They can't because why would you move in with a lock hand there? lol, AA is never slowing down here if you call the flop. PF call is also pretty thin. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: Sheriff Fatman on December 18, 2006, 01:50:57 PM I move in on the flop, if you call, he's slowing down even if an A or K comes which isn't that likely. A flat call looks scary, that's why you should move in, how can AA, KK and QQ pass? They can't because why would you move in with a lock hand there? If I've got QQ or KK there and you move in then I seriously consider folding. I don't fear 99 as much as I fear a higher overpair or Ahrt Kh and my equity isn't good against that range. Many people holiding the overpair in Booder's position will make the 'panic' play here with AA or KK and jam to protect against a potential flush draw. If the opponent reads it as such he could well fold so I think its a -EV play to push the flop with 99. Its not a situation where you're going to get called 100% of the time. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: theplayer_uk on December 18, 2006, 11:42:43 PM I move in on the flop, if you call, he's slowing down even if an A or K comes which isn't that likely. A flat call looks scary, that's why you should move in, how can AA, KK and QQ pass? They can't because why would you move in with a lock hand there? If I've got QQ or KK there and you move in then I seriously consider folding. I don't fear 99 as much as I fear a higher overpair or Ahrt Kh and my equity isn't good against that range. Many people holiding the overpair in Booder's position will make the 'panic' play here with AA or KK and jam to protect against a potential flush draw. If the opponent reads it as such he could well fold so I think its a -EV play to push the flop with 99. Its not a situation where you're going to get called 100% of the time. a -EV play to push with 99 on a 99x board, please stop, I am crying Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: Sheriff Fatman on December 19, 2006, 01:37:12 AM OK then Mr Pedantic its lower EV than not pushing the flop. There are approaches with higher expectation than this as you eliminate the folds as outlined above.
Happy now? Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: snoopy1239 on December 19, 2006, 02:50:15 AM First off, I'd be wary of raising just 3x the blind with pairs like these. Just raising to $6 pretty much assures you of at least one caller, so unless you are fortunate enough to hit your set (or quads in this case), then you're always going to be faced with a tough decision (overcards on the flop very likely) in which you could waste chips unnecessarily, yet win very few if you do indeed take the pot with just the one pair of nines.
Come the flop, there isn't too much else you can do here except make it look like you're drawing by smooth calling. Any raise and he's going to slow down considerably. On the Turn, however, I think you need to make a small bet. After re-raising pre-flop, I'd be very surprised if he can release his hand to a teaser bet. If he can, then he doesn't have anything that will allow you to rinse him anyhow. Betting the Turn, however, allows you the chance of winning two bets whilst checking means you can only win one. By the River, I think you can bet more. I don't often see people fold Aces to a River bet, and if you make it chunky you could make it look like a bluff, but that depends on the information you have on the guy. Overall, I don't think you played it too badly, just a few minor tweaks required here and there. For me, the key is to slowly building up the pot so you can bet into a more sizable pot on the River and make it hard for him to fold. Alternatively, you could move in on the Flop to make it look like you are drawing. Once again, depends on your notes on your opponent. Can he let go of an overpair? Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: snoopy1239 on December 19, 2006, 02:54:01 AM Quote i didnt reraise on the flop,as he could well have had AK and i lose my customer. This is a mistake that I feel many players make. If he has Ace King, then you're not going to get much out of him anyhow, perhaps an extra bluff. However, online cash is all about the double ups, so you have to play as if he has the overpair. Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: snoopy1239 on December 19, 2006, 02:56:33 AM Preflop can be a fold sometimes, flop is the easiest call ever, bet turn. I disagree, if you hit a nine then you have a good chance of taking his whole stack. The flop isn't the easiest call ever either. I can see how a raise here, especially an overbet, could be a useful tool. So many scare cards to an overpair can hit the Turn, so surely the re-raise on the flop is at least worth considering? Title: Re: would you have played this any differently ? Post by: theplayer_uk on December 19, 2006, 08:15:41 AM Preflop can be a fold sometimes, flop is the easiest call ever, bet turn. I disagree, if you hit a nine then you have a good chance of taking his whole stack. The flop isn't the easiest call ever either. I can see how a raise here, especially an overbet, could be a useful tool. So many scare cards to an overpair can hit the Turn, so surely the re-raise on the flop is at least worth considering? If you raise the flop it is likely you have - AA/ KK / 9-x / 77 / T-8 / hearts - His equity against this range is probably not great enough to call when he has QQ/KK, if he has AA well then yes there are a couple of scare cards on the turn but you raised UTG and called a re-raise from an OOP player which makes it far more likely that you do not indeed have hearts or T-8 and his call is still pretty marginal at best. You hit a set 1 in 7.5 times, You still lose 18% of the time you flop a set to a pair higher than yours 1 in 7 times an A flops when he has KK and you won't stack him 1 in 3.5 times a K or A flops when he has QQ and you won't stack him so unless you have pair value (which IMO has large RIO unless you are a great player in comparison and he is predictable) then you can't go around playing TT for set value alone in this spot. |