blonde poker forum

I have just got back from the Grosvenor, Southampton. I have foud previously that I have not done too well in rebuy tourneys operated at Casinos (ie shallow stacks and rapid blind levels coupled with gamblers not suiting my tight style). However I thought tonight would be different.

The tourney was a £20 double chance with 85 runners. Each player started with 2000 chips.

All started well. At the end of the first period I had 7000 chips compared to the 4600 average. However at some point I took a little bad beat and ended up on 5,000 chips.

By the time the blinds hit 300/600 my stack was down to 3,900. This was in comparison to the tourney average of 5,400 and most of the players around my table had about 4,500. At this point my M was around 4 1/2, so I started thinking about all in moves.

I soon found myself 5th to act at an 8 seat table. It folded around to me and a peek at the cards revealed pocket 7's. I moved all in. Next to act folded as did the SB. The BB (also the Big stack) called. It may be worth noting that this guy, although quite a wild player had been forced into laying down a few hands against me and had also taken a few thumpings off me at an earlier table. By the by, he called and with justification too as he had AK (unsuited). An Ace popped up on the turn and I was gone in 54th.

Was I right to make the play I made (theoretically, as it obviously was not the correct play with hindsight)?
Was I too hasty?
Should I have sat tight and waited for a better opportunity?
Should I have waited for the other players to blind out too?
In your experiences how many casino punters are aware of their Ms and Qs, in comparison to tournament players?

Lots of questions to answer I appreciate. I am just trying to find the right balance and arena to play my game in!

Many thanks and all your thoughts are appreciated.

 7h 7d B*gger!

Will explain later but am mutil tabling, just for now to put your mind at rest!

Wow, I actually agree with Flushy on something...and in this case everything.

You have a pocket pair in fairly late position and are shortstacked. However your stack is still sizeable enough to do some damage to other stacks. A push is the right thing to do.
Even against AK you are ahead and you want someone to call.
Picking up the blinds is not good enough as the next round you'll be in exactly the same spot.

So you pushed and got a caller and lost a race, it happens. It doesn't mean you made the wrong play. You have to set yourself up to win a tourney (or atleast have a shot at winning it) and that means getting your chips in in these situations.

You were not too hasty and you might not get a better opportunity.
Waiting for players to blind out to does you no good whatsoever as it still leaves you in all sorts of trouble. You are still a fair way away from the money, not even close to the bubble. There is no difference between going out in 54th or 31st.




BTW...average chips 5400 and 300-600 Blindlevels with 54 players left? In a round or two it would have turned into complete bingo fest in that situation. Sounds to me like everyone was shortstacked.

And indeed...everyone knows when they have to make a move...You don't need to read Harrington to realise you don't have a lot of chips..and in most low-entry rebuy tourneys there is absolutely no point in using Harrington as people who play them don't read it/ don't apply it.

Harrington might work in a big buy-in freeze-out because you are up against a certain level of player there. Those players ussually don't show up for a lower level re-buy tourney and therefore your knowledge of M and Q is wasted in those situations. (Although IMO harrington does more harm then good anyways..as is well documented ;)

Boldie,

I liked your thoughts on Harrigton's book. I've been playin a few months under dan's regime and have done ok (online) however it didnt take me long to come to the conclusion that you point out above. My main profits have arisen from MTT's which attract a better standard of player who can appreciate a move or two...usually.

I have struggled on the STT's tho, for obvious reasons if you know Dan's book, have you got any advice on adjusting my play for STT's or can you suggest any good books etc?

Thanks
Tilto
PS. James I'd appreciate your thoughts too if you have a minute when your not jamming the 1c/2c limit tables   :D

I love supersystem2 (not just the NL section but the entire phylosophy of most players that have written a chapter), especially for STT's the more agressive style really seems to work (even though I am a rock for the first few levels and only play premium hands because I don't see the point anymore pissing about hoping to win a few 20-40 blinds). In the latter stages of a STT (or all through the turbo STT after the first two levels) Supersystem 2 rules supreme from books I have read. (unfortunatly that means only Harrington, supersytem2 and phil helmuth's rubbish thing)

I am currently searching for a poker psychology book that would help me out a bit...so if anyone knows of a good one, I am drowning in borders gift vouchers ever since christmas :)

You lost a race....it happens.

Dan is great. I like to live my life how i think Dan would.

I always like to ask myself what Dan would do in specific situations and it usually sees my right.

Today i think Dan would have a quick look at some on-line porn and then go to yo sushi for a late lunch

Unraised pot, as a short stack, you are never wrong if you get em in first with atc.

Btw, I think the AK call was not great - AK is a raising hand not a calling hand. If he plenty of chips no brainer, but it sounds liek this was pretty much for his tournament too. I guess in a £20 game, you can't expect AK to pass as so many (particularly short) do push with much less (by that I mean weaker Aces AQ AJ AT) that he could have dominated, but you did nothing wrong, apart from perhaps playing tight enough to let yourself get low an dbe an auto call for some other stacks.

This is a joke yes?

Nope no joke - but nice to see you quoting me again.

Do you like CALLING off your stack with Ace high?

I see where you are coming from here,(But to me it doesn't sound like it was for his tourny life, just how it reads to me) but equally do you like being bullied by the table short-stack when you are the big-stack? If I wake up in the BB with AK and a late position small stack pushes I will call 99% (allowing for satelites etc) of the time.
If we bear in mind that over the next few rounds there is likely to be a lot of pushing chips around, we have to decide what kind of hand we will defend our blinds with. Out of interest Highstack, what would be your minimum requirement for calling in this position?  And how would this change if you know that the BB in this scenario has say 3x the chips of the initial raiser?

I just got the impression that he was reasonably average having been 'forced to lay a few down'. If he is in the 5k+ bracket, then calling off nearly 4k is preety much his tournament too and not as necessary to take on the likely race. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I pass it everytime, that is way too tight, but if the op was as tight as he says, I assume that the bb wasn't so low that it was an auto call with atc or he would have recognised that fact.

With AK you know that AA or KK (particularly button in unraised pot) is probably not what you are up against, but if I am forced to race in a tournament, then I prefer to do it on my terms and get them in first (as the 77 did here). If I am low then AK is too big to pass under any circumstances.

When the player in question has 3900 on 300-600 and pushes in from a LP AK is massive, well its always massive but its huge here. I would pass about 0% of the time, and yes i like stacking off here.


How do you know he is only a PP? Even if he only has a PP including AA and KK you are 43% with AKo and you are calling 3300 to win 4800 making it +EV

However a more likely range includes non pair hands aswell, i would say in this spot a tight oppo has Any A and KQ, it should be much wider but we are assuming near nit like status. Here you are 62% against the range, if you pass you keep the 3300, if you call and win you have 8100, on average against the range you take 5k out of the pot. 1700 chip gain, not bad on a 3300 call!

I do love it when all arguments are backed up with statistical +ev in tournament play. How many time shave you ever won from the rail? Tournaments are about so much more than whether it is a +ev call and if possible can go very deep without ever being forced into a race situation. If you like going all in regularly so that you can say well I was unlucky to go out as I was the favourite .... then that is what will happen. If you are fortunate enough to be all in 3 times as an 80/20 fav with overpair v underpair then you are pretty much a coinflip to still be alive. A gradual increase on stack and getting the chips in first is a far better way of accumulating a stack.

+ev calls for cash everytime. In tournaments they are overated.

Yes i agree it is not the preferred situation, but once you are short you don't get out of it by folding +EV situations, passing up on juicy +EV situations is for big stacks, not small stacks.

Thanks for the lesson on tournament poker though, i might have a go at one tonight!

 rotflmfao

Easy to ridicule when you run out of answers. You might be good at tournamnets,  but if you think you are too good to stop learning then you have serious problems.

I have explained as best i can as to why the call is massive +EV, i can do no more!

Write an atricle on it?

interesting


Does this explain why i have been railed during my last 2 live tourneys holding AKos twice ( both times around the bubble )

last time my all in vig being called by KQs (having a stack a little bigger than mine )


I thought i was just unlucky,this is making me rethink my strategy

Well in tourneys you have to avoid racing as much as possible IMO. Highstack is of course right when he says that you will lose one out of every 5 races in which you are an 80% fav to win it. Also ussually there is no need for it either (and more often then not you are not in 5 races where you are an 80% favourite to win it but probably 2 or 3 of those a 60-40 up against two live cards)
Whereever possible you should avoid a race in my opinion. If you have to go all inmore then 3 times in a tourney when you are raising you are doing something wrong. Sure you can win the tourney if you win all those races or the chips you can accumulate can atleast set you up to win it. But if you have all your chips in the middle more then 3 times before getting to the final table (assuming you haven't been a shortstack all through the tourney and didn't desperately need to accumulate chips) you most likely will not be making the final table let alone win the tourney.

The only excuses for getting all your chips in the middle SHOULD actually be;

A; I was  low on chips and needed to double/tripple up and this was the best time to do it, I just needed a bit of luck.

B; If I won this hand I would have been in a great position to take the tourney.


People too often say "Well, I'm a 60-40 favourite so 6 out of ten times I should win this race therefore it's a good call"
This is simply not true and too often you hear players who have been knocked out after being the 60-40 favourite twice and then lost one complain that "But I'm a 60-40 favourite I should have won that hand"
If your tourney could be on the line and there is no need for you to get involved in a 60-40 race and no major benefitto you winning the pot it's a fold IMO.

This is all before final table play .
On the bubble it's just madness to get involved in 60-40 races unless you are shortstacked/ are in a great position to win the tourney if you win that pot.


Just my opinion of course.


edit * before some smart arse says "even if you go all-in with aces you are still racing"..that is of course not what I mean.

Good post.

I would also add that I don't mind racing, even as a small dog occasionally, but I prefer to be not only in first, but doing without all my chips for sale, by racing against stacks that are vastly inferior to mine.

ok mr boldie


been mulling this one over in my head since last weekend  lol


opinion highly sought

i like ur advice btw


so its 4 handed 18 started pays on 2..i have around 36k in BB,cutoff (CL) has around 100k,button has 50k and SB has 40k

blinds 1 and 2k,so im low man....


i get dealt AKos ,cl folds,button calls sb raises 7k..so its 6k for me to call......but i push all in


now although being the low stack i was pushing it agressively,openly bluffing..the sb is obviously new to live and is agressive,after seeing to much wpt final table coverage methinks...


anyways he dwells,and i kind of give him uncomfortable body language ( i want the call ),,he does call with KQ!!!!!

and im railed after the Queen hits the flop


how bad did i play it,how else could i have played it considering my dwindling stack??

Nothing wrong there Bhoy at all. You were not only in front, but you pushed and didn't call. His play was shocking and you were just unlucky.

I wouldn't pass my AK in this situation. I too would have pushed with it (maybe flat call push the flop no matter what..but my chips are in unless I know something about the SB) And I'm fine with you pushing here.
 
Actually dissapointed by the guy calling you. It's exactly the sort of call there's no need for in my opinion and it's what I was mainly talking about in my previous post. Yes he would have been down to 32k himself but pick up a few blinds and he would have been fine.
If someone acts like they don't want a call (like you did) they ussually actually scream "BIG SLICK!" or "MASSIVE HAND!!" so unless you are a great actor  in these situations he could have known better.

I however would probably not want a call in this situation (if I don't know I have him dominated..if i know he has KQ I want him to call obviously). He could have 10-J and you find yourself a 60-40 shot. I am ussually more then happy picking up the extra 7k in the pot.

However, as only top two got paid and you essentially need to double up, pushing here is the right thing to do and getting the call is great in this case. Yes you got unlucky but there was nothing much you can do about that in this situation. You needed 60k to have a shot at winning the tourney and, untill the flop came, were in a great position to get that.


The situation I was referring to more would be the following (made up example so don't read the situation too literally)


Top 5 get paid, you are on the final table with 8 Players left and you are on the button.

CL on the table with 50k average 30k, you have 35K Blinds are 500-1000. A shortstack (less then 9K) pushes all the chippies in before betting comes to you (you have seen him slowly go nuts over not finding anything so any two face cards or even small pair he could push with), one other guy (26K) pushes his chips in too in a re-raise. This guy has been LAG.

SB and BB look ready to fold (and you have a good read on them so assume they will)

Why would you call here with AK or middle pocket pair?

I have seen soo many people do this it frightens me. The extra 34k would indeed make you CL but there's plenty of play left for you anyways so not really a need for it as the CL only has 16k more in chips then you at the moment.
This is exactly the sort of situation that you should avoid in my opinion.

I know this doesn't relate to your specific situation as you mentioned above and in your situation you made the right play but generally speaking in a tournament people should really avoid getting most (if not all)  of their chips in the middle with a hand like AK unless they have a good reason to (and like I said before there should really only be two of those reasons) Especially calling with AK (and I am with highstack on this one) is not something I like to do.
Being the agressor is fine (like you were) flat calling is not ideal with it.

thx for the responses high stack and boldie


im gonna seriously consider wot u said in my upcoming home game this weekend

when the enivitable situation arrives

I seriously doubt your play of AK is the thing that costs you. How would you have played 56s or 72o in this spot? That is what is more important to making you into a better player.

excellent question.

56 sooted depending on the sort of player SB is (obviously) can be a pushing hand. actaully depending on the sort of player the SB is any hand can be a pushing hand. If you think he's weak and can lay a hand down you should push with any two cards in this situation so that you pick up the extra 7k IMO.

It would depend what you knew of teh KQ villain. He sounds like a complete station, which is unfortunate, because with how he described the hand, then I might be tempted to push with 65 or 72 also! In fact if I knew he had KQ, I would definitely jam with both of those hands as he shouldn't be calling! The button limp at that stage, would have been more of a worry :)

lol separated at birth :)

(I feel sorry for you mate)

i had been bluffing like a maddie previous flushy to survive ( after sufferring an earlier outdraw ) and getting folded back to me,so my image was crazy,I expected the call anytime from the noobie,i could see his frustration build,so i just duplicated my play to get the call.....

but yeah i see wot u r getting at


p.s. a few months back i got 72os ,this time i had crept into the money ,4 handed,  1st in the pot on the button..stuff it i thought..im all in i hear myself saying......lol


called by the sb wi A10.......hmmmmmm  and railed..it was a kinda self test.....my groan when he said call was fairly loud..lol

Open pushing with 72 is a bit lame IMO, i prefer to re-raise as you get far more respect and a bigger pot.

as ever always an education


now i must remember to write this stuff down and take it with me

lol

Even better is some mugs will pass Ak because they don't want to call their chips of with AK and go into a 50-50

rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao that made me spill my coffee you mug...Now where's my harrington on holdem napkin?

Now I wonder who you might be referring to there .... flushy speaks so flushy is right .... oh dear, it must be great being you!

i still respect u RF


lol

what,. respect flushy?...

Dammit Flushy, now look what you've done! That's another one over to the dark side of weird freakish insta calls and insta all ins ;)

lol.

I just don't understand why people go and overcomplicate situations, most times in tournament poker things are very straight foward!

Flushie talks some bs sometimes but the AK situation calling your chips off in the BB is pretty straightforward.

When sklanksy used to talk about passing up +ev in tourneys in order to take a better situation later down the line, he's not talking about shortstacks.

If you're as short as this, you have to take +ev situations. Blind pressure means you won't have time to find better spots.

There might be exceptional circumstances around especially steep payout structured events, eg satellites but this isn't one. Get yourself in this spot, win your overlayed pot where you have an edge and pick up some folding equity and punish the weak tighties.

Like your blog though highstacks, keep it up.

Thanks Jungle.

I had given up on it, but I may start again. I had a few nasty comments posted (of course by anonymous), so I made it that only other bloggers could leave replies. It was supposed to be a warts'n'all account and I would never take down some good old critiocsm that I can handle, but this was personal and more than a little sick, so I thought why the hell should I bother? That said, I have had lots of requests to keep it going, so I will probably do anoter update soon.

Don't let the morons put you off.

I think you've generally been very honest, especially about some of your personal difficulties which is admirable and quite difficult.

People troll round the blogs writing all kinds of crap in the comments. Just filter out the stuff which is stupidly vindictive and take on board the constructive stuff, be it praise or criticism.

Let flushie have this round.

You'll have plenty of opportunity to get him back later. Like when he checks the seating arrangement of a live tournament he's in and finds himself at the same table as sofa----king, yourself and Mick Mc have-a-go from the hendon mob forum!

Wow..easy money at that table Flush..i might join ya there ;)

Just kidding highstack.

 Read you blog by the way..good read. One question have you stopped paying after drinking now? I generally find that a sure-fire way to going bust.

looooooooooool :)

With gods help, I will beat this terrible affliction :) (I'm trying mate :) )

:goodpost: ;iagree;