Inflection Points Mark 2

[jjandellis]

I have just got back from the Grosvenor, Southampton. I have foud previously that I have not done too well in rebuy tourneys operated at Casinos (ie shallow stacks and rapid blind levels coupled with gamblers not suiting my tight style). However I thought tonight would be different.

The tourney was a £20 double chance with 85 runners. Each player started with 2000 chips.

All started well. At the end of the first period I had 7000 chips compared to the 4600 average. However at some point I took a little bad beat and ended up on 5,000 chips.

By the time the blinds hit 300/600 my stack was down to 3,900. This was in comparison to the tourney average of 5,400 and most of the players around my table had about 4,500. At this point my M was around 4 1/2, so I started thinking about all in moves.

I soon found myself 5th to act at an 8 seat table. It folded around to me and a peek at the cards revealed pocket 7's. I moved all in. Next to act folded as did the SB. The BB (also the Big stack) called. It may be worth noting that this guy, although quite a wild player had been forced into laying down a few hands against me and had also taken a few thumpings off me at an earlier table. By the by, he called and with justification too as he had AK (unsuited). An Ace popped up on the turn and I was gone in 54th.

Was I right to make the play I made (theoretically, as it obviously was not the correct play with hindsight)?
Was I too hasty?
Should I have sat tight and waited for a better opportunity?
Should I have waited for the other players to blind out too?
In your experiences how many casino punters are aware of their Ms and , in comparison to tournament players?

Lots of questions to answer I appreciate. I am just trying to find the right balance and arena to play my game in!

Many thanks and all your thoughts are appreciated.

  B*gger!

[Royal Flush]

Was I right to make the play I made (theoretically, as it obviously was not the correct play with hindsight)?

Yes

Was I too hasty?

No

Should I have sat tight and waited for a better opportunity?

No

Should I have waited for the other players to blind out too?

No

In your experiences how many casino punters are aware of their Ms and , in comparison to tournament players?

People knew they were short stacked before harrington wrote a book!

[Royal Flush]

Will explain later but am mutil tabling, just for now to put your mind at rest!

[boldie]

Was I right to make the play I made (theoretically, as it obviously was not the correct play with hindsight)?

Yes

Was I too hasty?

No

Should I have sat tight and waited for a better opportunity?

No

Should I have waited for the other players to blind out too?

No

In your experiences how many casino punters are aware of their Ms and , in comparison to tournament players?

People knew they were short stacked before harrington wrote a book!

Wow, I actually agree with Flushy on something...and in this case everything.

You have a pocket pair in fairly late position and are shortstacked. However your stack is still sizeable enough to do some damage to other stacks. A push is the right thing to do.
Even against AK you are ahead and you want someone to call.
Picking up the blinds is not good enough as the next round you'll be in exactly the same spot.

So you pushed and got a caller and lost a race, it happens. It doesn't mean you made the wrong play. You have to set yourself up to win a tourney (or atleast have a shot at winning it) and that means getting your chips in in these situations.

You were not too hasty and you might not get a better opportunity.
Waiting for players to blind out to does you no good whatsoever as it still leaves you in all sorts of trouble. You are still a fair way away from the money, not even close to the bubble. There is no difference between going out in 54th or 31st.




BTW...average chips 5400 and 300-600 Blindlevels with 54 players left? In a round or two it would have turned into complete bingo fest in that situation. Sounds to me like everyone was shortstacked.

And indeed...everyone knows when they have to make a move...You don't need to read Harrington to realise you don't have a lot of chips..and in most low-entry rebuy tourneys there is absolutely no point in using Harrington as people who play them don't read it/ don't apply it.

Harrington might work in a big buy-in freeze-out because you are up against a certain level of player there. Those players ussually don't show up for a lower level re-buy tourney and therefore your knowledge of M and Q is wasted in those situations. (Although IMO harrington does more harm then good anyways..as is well documented

[El Tilto]

Boldie,

I liked your thoughts on Harrigton's book. I've been playin a few months under dan's regime and have done ok (online) however it didnt take me long to come to the conclusion that you point out above. My main profits have arisen from MTT's which attract a better standard of player who can appreciate a move or two...usually.

I have struggled on the STT's tho, for obvious reasons if you know Dan's book, have you got any advice on adjusting my play for STT's or can you suggest any good books etc?

Thanks
Tilto
PS. James I'd appreciate your thoughts too if you have a minute when your not jamming the 1c/2c limit tables  

[boldie]

Boldie,

I liked your thoughts on Harrigton's book. I've been playin a few months under dan's regime and have done ok (online) however it didnt take me long to come to the conclusion that you point out above. My main profits have arisen from MTT's which attract a better standard of player who can appreciate a move or two...usually.

I have struggled on the STT's tho, for obvious reasons if you know Dan's book, have you got any advice on adjusting my play for STT's or can you suggest any good books etc?

Thanks
Tilto
PS. James I'd appreciate your thoughts too if you have a minute when your not jamming the 1c/2c limit tables  

I love supersystem2 (not just the NL section but the entire phylosophy of most players that have written a chapter), especially for STT's the more agressive style really seems to work (even though I am a rock for the first few levels and only play premium hands because I don't see the point anymore pissing about hoping to win a few 20-40 blinds). In the latter stages of a STT (or all through the turbo STT after the first two levels) Supersystem 2 rules supreme from books I have read. (unfortunatly that means only Harrington, supersytem2 and phil helmuth's rubbish thing)

I am currently searching for a poker psychology book that would help me out a bit...so if anyone knows of a good one, I am drowning in borders gift vouchers ever since christmas

[maldini32]

You lost a race....it happens.

[brado]

Dan is great. I like to live my life how i think Dan would.

I always like to ask myself what Dan would do in specific situations and it usually sees my right.

Today i think Dan would have a quick look at some on-line porn and then go to yo sushi for a late lunch

[Highstack]

Unraised pot, as a short stack, you are never wrong if you get em in first with atc.

Btw, I think the AK call was not great - AK is a raising hand not a calling hand. If he plenty of chips no brainer, but it sounds liek this was pretty much for his tournament too. I guess in a £20 game, you can't expect AK to pass as so many (particularly short) do push with much less (by that I mean weaker Aces AQ AJ AT) that he could have dominated, but you did nothing wrong, apart from perhaps playing tight enough to let yourself get low an dbe an auto call for some other stacks.

[Royal Flush]

Btw, I think the AK call was not great - AK is a raising hand not a calling hand.

This is a joke yes?

[Highstack]

Nope no joke - but nice to see you quoting me again.

Do you like CALLING off your stack with Ace high?

[Pilf]

Do you like CALLING off your stack with Ace high?

I see where you are coming from here,(But to me it doesn't sound like it was for his tourny life, just how it reads to me) but equally do you like being bullied by the table short-stack when you are the big-stack? If I wake up in the BB with AK and a late position small stack pushes I will call 99% (allowing for satelites etc) of the time.
If we bear in mind that over the next few rounds there is likely to be a lot of pushing chips around, we have to decide what kind of hand we will defend our blinds with. Out of interest Highstack, what would be your minimum requirement for calling in this position?  And how would this change if you know that the BB in this scenario has say 3x the chips of the initial raiser?

[Highstack]

I just got the impression that he was reasonably average having been 'forced to lay a few down'. If he is in the 5k+ bracket, then calling off nearly 4k is preety much his tournament too and not as necessary to take on the likely race. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I pass it everytime, that is way too tight, but if the op was as tight as he says, I assume that the bb wasn't so low that it was an auto call with atc or he would have recognised that fact.

With AK you know that AA or KK (particularly button in unraised pot) is probably not what you are up against, but if I am forced to race in a tournament, then I prefer to do it on my terms and get them in first (as the 77 did here). If I am low then AK is too big to pass under any circumstances.

[Royal Flush]

Do you like CALLING off your stack with Ace high?

When the player in question has 3900 on 300-600 and pushes in from a LP AK is massive, well its always massive but its huge here. I would pass about 0% of the time, and yes i like stacking off here.

With AK you know that AA or KK (particularly button in unraised pot) is probably not what you are up against, but if I am forced to race in a tournament, then I prefer to do it on my terms and get them in first (as the 77 did here). If I am low then AK is too big to pass under any circumstances.

How do you know he is only a PP? Even if he only has a PP including AA and KK you are 43% with AKo and you are calling 3300 to win 4800 making it +EV

However a more likely range includes non pair hands aswell, i would say in this spot a tight oppo has Any A and KQ, it should be much wider but we are assuming near nit like status. Here you are 62% against the range, if you pass you keep the 3300, if you call and win you have 8100, on average against the range you take 5k out of the pot. 1700 chip gain, not bad on a 3300 call!

[Highstack]

I do love it when all arguments are backed up with statistical +ev in tournament play. How many time shave you ever won from the rail? Tournaments are about so much more than whether it is a +ev call and if possible can go very deep without ever being forced into a race situation. If you like going all in regularly so that you can say well I was unlucky to go out as I was the favourite .... then that is what will happen. If you are fortunate enough to be all in 3 times as an 80/20 fav with overpair v underpair then you are pretty much a coinflip to still be alive. A gradual increase on stack and getting the chips in first is a far better way of accumulating a stack.

+ev calls for cash everytime. In tournaments they are overated.