blonde poker forum

I'm not sure if a similar topic has been posted before like this, but i tried to search for one and couldn't find any.

But at the Leeds Grovesnor Moortown Casino on Sunday i had the dream situation.
The guy next to me, who with around 30 ppl left, was up there with myself as one of the chip leaders, kept putting his cards up to his face and staring at them (he had glasses on) whilst unintentionally showing me his cards everytime.

Should i have done the moral and decent thing here and pretended i didn't see them and just play as i would've done normally to his raise (i.e fold)??

Or is it within my right to call his raise and then play off him in the hand knowing his cards?
Considering it wasn't really that i looked at his cards, i couldn't really avoid seeing them.

Has anyone else had this situation before.



What happened was that i was a horrible person and saw that he had AQ when he raised so called with my 6 2os.

Flop came 5 7 9, we check, turn a J, i check, he makes it 10k. I consider just calling and checking to him on the river to win more chips but decide theres too much of a risk of him hitting or checking behind me so pump it upto 30k and he folds.

I do this a few more times and win a tonne of chips.

I didnt even read it coz i know you are a dirty stinking cheat already!

Have read it now- this happened to me in a home game, i bought some lovely shiny glasses and my mates could see my cards, but they told me after a couple of hands and i havent done it since.
IMO you should do the gentleman thing and tell him if he does it again but i personally hate people who lift cards up to their face anyway!

should have told him,.,.,

I dont think you're "a cheat" but it is cheating.

Not sure what I'd have done?  I think I'd have said something at some point but after a couple of looks :D  I'd have sounded surprised that I could see them though, as if I'd just noticed kind of thing!

It's not something I've come across yet so haven't had to deal with it.

And why are you calling raises with 62 when you can see he has AQ ??

On the immorality spectrum, it lies somewhere in between finding £100 in the street and not handing it in and burgling a house coz the door was open.

lol, tbh there are a few old ones at Moortown that put their cards right upto their face and have to make sure others can't see. Happened alot to me, its tricky situation. I wouldn't say anything and I would consionsly not look. (Making sure no one else was either thou).

If it was the older jewish man with glasses he does it all the time and I would tell him! *even though he is feking loaded* He's a really really bad player :(

You've got to tell him the first time you notice his cards. It's happened to me and I had a quiet word. Other fella did not realsie and was grateful


To actually play a hand with him knowing what he is got is completely out of order.

To be fair, I know some Senior Citizens who do have trouble seeing their cards, & we should be tolerant & kind to them.

You are nothing but a cheat, that is disgraceful. As soon as you see someone's cards and you are in a hand its your duty to announce the cards you have seen and mateyboys hand is dead.

I can't believe you took it to the next level and deliberately got involved in a coup with filth to take even more advantage.

Have a nice day.

To be serious, the etiquette if you accidentally see any "unexposed" (hole cards, burn cards or flop cards pre-deal) is to announce them to the whole table.

It's not even a case of etiquette, its your obligation to do so.

I know. Im pure filth.

that's what I do and I am with flushy on this..to actually go ahead and play the hand out the way it was played out is cheating.

I wouldnt hand the £100 in, but id leave the door well alone.

Pure filth wouldn't have posted this scenario. Pure filth would have gone home, counted his spoils, and slept like a baby.

That you are questioning your actions leaves us all (apart from Flushy who is hastily arranging a Kangaroo court, complete with gallows) to believe there is room for Salvation in you yet young Jedi. Do not despair, there is room to repent before the hand of Judgement cometh and smiteth thee with a pox of set over set.

Wow. I never realised it was considered 'cheating' to not announce if you've seen someone elses cards. I thought that was considered the player's own fault for not protecting their hand. However, I still think it's correct etiquette and a good sport to announce when you've seen someone's cards.

When I was caught out by The Real Hustle a couple of weeks back, part of the scam involved the Hustler ordering a drink, and 'accidentally' lowering his left hand at the same time, thus exposing some of his cards to me (turns out the ones he wanted me to see...)

I didn't tell him that time, as he was acting like a cock - e.g. abusive to us at the table, and to the waiting staff, so that might be the reason I didn't say I saw his cards. That, and it seemed a little too deliberate I guess?...

flushy....you just about to get a pair of timmy mallot specs by any chance ;D

on a serious note i would tell the guy first chance....but seeing as how i am usually out in 10 minutes i cant see myself being in that position

You need to start protecting your hand patman.  ;D

too busy protecting me pint.

 rotflmfao

Flushy for Mod

If mateboys hand is dead when you announce that you've seen the cards, that would have buggered up the Battersea hustle somewhat.

Timmy Mallet is my hero.

I was involved in a similar incident about a year ago at Notts Gala. The gent next to me kept exposing his cards and I was the only who could see them on the table, I had a word with him and let the rest of the table know what i had seen in that particular hand. I had to warn him twice more in the next hour.

To be honest i was fed up with it, I mean how many times do you have to tell someone, so when he did it again. I looked down to  Kd Jh and saw he had raised it up with Jc Th. I was the only caller and the flop came j high. I took all his money, to be honest i would probably have not played the hand any different but knowing i had him crushed, i had no real fear unless he caught the 10.

I think you should warn your opponent but as in cricket when a batsman keeps leaving his crease when the bowler is running up you should be allowed to take the bails off after a warning.

Flushy are you honestly saying you havent done anything you regret, and then questioned yourself after the occasion!!!!

He knows what he did was wrong otherwise he wouldn't have posted it. Someone who doesn't regret it, or have no morals would not post what he posted.

You know for next time, and I for one would have no problems sitting down and playing you at cards (take my sunglasses off obviously)

why is my writing in grey on the above post - im scared

Good post sir.

Because you used the "Quote" Facility, but wrote "inside it".

 this happened to me once ,  i had K9 spades and the guy next to me picked up his cards and i seen he had 2 low spades.

 i didnt go out my way to look at his cards and imo its his responsibility to keep his hole cards hidden

 so i used it to my advantage when 3 spades came on the board , shit happens and we are in it to win it at the end of the day

thankyou Mr Tikay sir

surely flushy regrets the time he dipped himself in grease, and went clubbing at G.A.Y

I don't regret the night I dipped myself in grease and went clubbing at G.A.Y.

one of the best nights of my life.

Are you implying to do so is somehow immoral? Is smithy about to go all Isaiah on us.

I DID COZ WHEN I TOOK MY BOYFRIEND HOME HE JUST KEPT SLIPPING OFF

 rotflmfao

kingpoker - marmite jockey

I do love marmite.
I'd rather be a marmite jockey than a bovril bitch!

lolol

Marmite muncher was a favourite saying at school

Children please!

was only jesting - sorry

he started it!

lol

i wouldnt say a word, "its immoraly wrong to let a sucker keep his money"  in poker it is an edge/given to disclose your hole cards. I wouldnt go attempting to look at his cards but if he saw them by accident im playing every hand with him, and i dare say some  others who have called it immoral would have done the same as horneris


**** newsflash *****   poker is not littered with saints       

Just because it's a game of deception doesn't mean you have to cheat.

P.S. You in jail yet?

(http://rabotaem.com/img/v_bad.gif)

Can of worms.... ;popcorn;

It happened to me, someone continually exposing his cards, I kept  telling him about it but he seemed incapable of protecting them, he just stood them on end to have a look. Strange as it may seem, it didn't occur to me to announce his hand to the table, thereby killing it.

An interesting thread.

I'm really undecided where I stand. If I was in the same position as the original poster I would have a quiet word with the guy. But, when it comes down to it, it is the players responsibility to protect his own hand.

I certainly don't think Horneris cheated by looking at them. It's just a matter of personal morals. I wouldn't want to win like that, some players win at all costs, and good luck to them as long as they don't cheat to do so.

If someone has an obvious tell, you don't announce it.

I know it's a different thing - but it's related.

I am pretty sure I know the individual who was exposing the cards, he's a regular and been told before, tbh I am sure hes been told 100's of times (each time he looks at his cards he put's them right upto his face off the table).

When does it come to a point where you take advantage of this if the person a) don't care b) wont alter how he views his card.

The problem there is that you have an unfair advantage over the other players. I could never be comfy with that, except by means of my superior play, of course.

It's a difficult one but I for one will be offering to shine my opponents glasses from now on  ;hide; Only joking.

Surprised at you Red - you are the one who will sit out and wait when your opponent gets disconnected.  ;smackedbottom;

Hey acid, its actually not the guy ur thinking of!

I've never seen the guy before.

There is more like that! ok heading down there tonight :)

Personally, I'd rather beat people in a fair fight. I have told people in the past that they need to be more careful in how they hold their cards, because I couldsee them. I don't want to sit at a table and let others have the slightest element of doubt that I'm taking money off them by unfair means.

I did see someone's hole cards once on the turn and river. As far as I remember I have a massive hand multiway, a set or something. Turn is a  3h. Friend beside me whispers 'Ye ken, I'm sure I folded that.' River  5c. 'Yer, definitely folded that' (the hand which gave me the nut boat). Thankfully (sighs) he was honest and the dealer admitted yes, perhaps he was indeed dealing from the muck.

Opened this up expecting "I only kissed her" :D

I would have told him if it happened more than once.  

Something similar came up in a self-dealt game last week - I saw the bottom card on the deck was a 4 before it was cut (as well might the whole of the table).  If it had been a high card, I would have said something but didn't say anything - I suppose I thought it would be of no consequence.  I then got dealt pocket fours, which I didn't play as I knew one of my outs had no chance of hitting - I felt like an awful cheat :(  I couldn't say anything at that stage as I would rightly have been questioned over why I didn't mention it before.  If it had happened again, I would have mentioned it.

Surprised at me, why, because something didn't occur to me?

Yes - You are my poker God - all seeing, all knowing, all moral etc. I was disconnected last week heads up and the other player just kept raising to nick the blinds - all I kept on thinking when I was trying to reconnect was I hope I'm playing someone like Red. x

Flattery will get you everywhere  :kiss:

My answer to this dilemma is it depends on your views on the person exposing their cards.

You have no concerns as to the advantage improperly gained against the rest of the table?

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        be not anxious for goods unjustly gotton; for they shall not profit thee in the days of calamity and revenge

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

Well you may well be right Andrew, & I know you are a man of the highest moral standards, but if I can see my neighbours hole cards, & the rest of the table cannot, I have an unfair advantage on them. Fair on him, maybe, but unfair on everyone else. I don't sit easy with that.

Poker is a game of luck - any game of luck is prone to giving unfair advantages to certain people through no volition of their own. You can't beat yourself up over it. In this particular instance you could just turn away/close your eyes when you see your opponent go for his cards, if you really wanted to level the playing field.

In your case it would be irrelevant anyway - you'd be most likely to misread your opponent's cards.

Good Post Andrew

Its my understanding that the basic 'rule' is to 'protect your cards at all times' not 'if someone shows you their cards, don't look'.
I personally would let him know that I can see his cards and he should consider protetecting them more, but I would do it once. After that he's fair game!!!!!!

Tikay, If you were sat next to someone who muttered the names of their cards 'under their breath' when viewing them (a nervous thing), would you anounce it to the table? or would you consider it a tell to take advantage of?


I ask that cause it something I do on every hand I play online, and have to really concentrate to not do it live........

I would like to state that if I needed to lean back on my seat to see his cards when he was being careless, I would go out of my way to lean forward....

I really don't know what I'd do, to tell the truth.

But as my hearing is worse than my eyesight, I'd prob mis-hear him.....

 rotflmfao

Hi fella,
In my mind it is a simple matter. If I see a card that belongs to anyone I announce it. I tell the player I have seen their cards. He can then decide what he wants to do. usually the rest of the table want to know what the card is. If he does not play I announce the card to the table. If he plays he is playing knowing I have seen his card. In that instance I have done all I can and we continue. The problem is that it is amazing how many times players don't believe you have seen their cards. For me once I have told you I know one or more of your cards it is your decision.
Personally I feel it is wrong to play when you know a players cards unless you announce it to the table that you know.

I think that's a good approach - clear and open.

i see his cards once and tell him, then i take full advantage from there on.
This has happened to me a few times, and it tends to be the same people, and to be honest they dont seem to care.

To be fair to Edy you did ask, you posted it on a public forum and you should expect a contrasting array of opinions.

To be fair i dont remember criticising his opinion.

But to call me thick as 2 short planks means war.

is it a minimum of 3?

I think it would be the fact he called me a
C
U
Next
Tuesday

when he doesnt even know who i am would bother me!!

Cool it lads.

I wasn't implying you criticised him, i just think that when you post such an emotive topic its responsible to receive all views with the same equanimity that you had thus far displayed.

I didnt think "bring it" was a very mature riposte.

i think its c u next tuesdayish behaviour kingpoker

 ;popcorn;

I'm locking this topic until I have had a chance to speak to the other mods.

The OP asked if he was a cheat, pure & simple, so you can say "yes, you are a cheat", but the flaming, profanities & insults on this last page were unacceptable & they have been Deleted.

If that's the kind of thing you want & like, this is the wrong time, & the wrong place.

It's been a great debate until now, so let it continue that way.

What i meant to offer as an opinion was, yes i think you cheated, however my main objective for posting was to say how amazed i was that here on blonde where everyone seems  so nice and honourable you got even 1 person thinking you didnt cheat,let alone several.For sure, on the gutshot forum you'd get applauded and given rake free poker from one end of Clerkenwell to the other but this is blonde ffs. SINCERLY THOUGH I DO I OFFER MY APPOLOGIES FOR INTERMATING YOUR IQ IS  4c 7c,SORRY

Just goes to show your perceptions of the dynamic here may be, perhaps, ill founded?

A more diverse bunch than you had previously imagined.

OK, I'm happy with that, i just thought your first response was v offensive to moi.

But Ive enjoyed this debate so far.

I wasn't condoning what i did either....i just thought it was an interesting topic

Sorry Ed, but Gutshot & blonde do things differently. Each to their own, as the saying goes.

It IS an interesting topic. Some if us consider it cheating, but it'd probably 50/50 if we read all the Posts. Verey interesting!

Quodos to OP.

Something most of us have done (in some form or another) but no-one admits to. Makes for an interesting subject.

Like Mango99, very interesting point he made. No-one picked up on it when he posted his real hustle, so why is there such indignance at Horneris here?
Like if you punch the local vicar in the pub, they chase you out of the village with pitchforks. If you lay that same left hook on the poacher, they buy you a pint.
Is it unreasonable to make this distinction? The character of the victim so radically affecting the seriousness of the crime.

Then of course, what of the matter of degrees?
If I'm staring at a player in a heads up pot, trying my hardest to get information from their mannerisms. If while I'm doing this, I see reflected in their sunglasses that both their hole cards are black, what is one to do with that information as the hand plays out?

Or the same situation as OP, but open handed man has KK, and you have AA? Are you going to speak up and make sure his hand is declared dead?

What if the vicars stealing your chickens?

that's fair game......

Try the more subtle approach next time (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j210/lordlanto/glasses3toy-p117.jpg)

Its stolen game!

probably gonna get murdered for saying this but poker is a game of information and you have been given so much information here it would be wrong not to use it. I can't say hand on heart I wouldn't use the information given to me as I haven't been put in this position before but I do not class you as a cheat. I have posted here before reading everyone else's thoughts  on this BTW and I will read the rest of the thread tomorrow. To leave a mug with his money is a cardinal sin in poker and if you don't take it then somebody else will (you think this is the first time he has done this and that he has never been told about it before??).

I play poker for money at the end of the day and it is my opponents job to protect his cards- if he doesn't its not my fault. I may have a word at some stage but I couldn't say for certain wether it would be straight away or not and if he continued to show me his cards after that then its his fault not mine.

Anybody on here who has jumped on him for being a cheat ask your self a simple question. Say tomorrow you logged in to stars/crypto/betfair or whichever site is your poison and found when you sat at any cash table due to a glitch in the software you could see all your opponents whole cards. How many of you would log out and send an email to the site or how many of you would go and sit on the biggest table you could buy into and sit with a bunch of scandies? I know where I would be and it wouldn't be hotmail it would be the 100/200nl or wherever I could clean up quickest.

I've only played live poker once, & the guy that took me ( a very experienced player ) said it was my responsibility to keep my cards private.  I'm pretty sure I read in a book of Doyles articles from the 70's & 80's that he says exactly the same thing.

So surely if someone were trying to see his cards, that would be cheating, or seeking to gain an unfair advantage.

But if you weren't trying to see, but were inadvertantly shown, surely that would come under the heading of information gained.

Admitedly, in that game I played, I told the table it was my first game, & one of the regulars actually pointed out that he saw my cards once.  I appreciated his tip.  So maybe if the bloke in the original post was a new visitor, a quick comment may have been 'nice'.  But I don't see how anyone can condemn something that isn't against the rules of the game.  ( unless of course I'm wrong about that ).

Apparantly it was once considered by some to be unsporting to use the check raise in a friendly game.  What a rediculous idea.  ( Again, according to Doyle's book ).   

If I see someones cards accidentally and I'm not in the hand I tell him to keep them down. If I'm in the hand or have yet to decide I'll tell the table I've seen his cards and what I've seen. I do think by not doing so I'm acting dishonestly. I would do the same if it was someone pitching their cards too high when passing or player dealers not using cut cards and exposing bottom cards.

if a couple of warnings don't do the job the Tournament Director needas to be told. situations could arise where spectators are seeing the cards and signaling to players and the integrity of the whole game starts to fall apart.

All Depends to me how big my bankroll is :)

No seriously i would announce it first time and if it continued to happen i wouldn't say a thing. In fact id consider buying a periscope