Morality: Am i a Cheat?

[RED-DOG]

It's a difficult one but I for one will be offering to shine my opponents glasses from now on  Only joking.

Surprised at you Red - you are the one who will sit out and wait when your opponent gets disconnected. 

Surprised at me, why, because something didn't occur to me?

Yes - You are my poker God - all seeing, all knowing, all moral etc. I was disconnected last week heads up and the other player just kept raising to nick the blinds - all I kept on thinking when I was trying to reconnect was I hope I'm playing someone like Red. x

Flattery will get you everywhere 

[Indestructable]

My answer to this dilemma is it depends on your views on the person exposing their cards.

[tikay]

My answer to this dilemma is it depends on your views on the person exposing their cards.

You have no concerns as to the advantage improperly gained against the rest of the table?

[AndrewT]

My answer to this dilemma is it depends on your views on the person exposing their cards.

You have no concerns as to the advantage improperly gained against the rest of the table?

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

[tikay]

My answer to this dilemma is it depends on your views on the person exposing their cards.

You have no concerns as to the advantage improperly gained against the rest of the table?

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

[iceman]

I'm not sure if a similar topic has been posted before like this, but i tried to search for one and couldn't find any.

But at the Leeds Grovesnor Moortown Casino on Sunday i had the dream situation.
The guy next to me, who with around 30 ppl left, was up there with myself as one of the chip leaders, kept putting his cards up to his face and staring at them (he had glasses on) whilst unintentionally showing me his cards everytime.

Should i have done the moral and decent thing here and pretended i didn't see them and just play as i would've done normally to his raise (i.e fold)??

Or is it within my right to call his raise and then play off him in the hand knowing his cards?
Considering it wasn't really that i looked at his cards, i couldn't really avoid seeing them.

Has anyone else had this situation before.



What happened was that i was a horrible person and saw that he had AQ when he raised so called with my 6 2os.

Flop came 5 7 9, we check, turn a J, i check, he makes it 10k. I consider just calling and checking to him on the river to win more chips but decide theres too much of a risk of him hitting or checking behind me so pump it upto 30k and he folds.

I do this a few more times and win a tonne of chips.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        be not anxious for goods unjustly gotton; for they shall not profit thee in the days of calamity and revenge

[AndrewT]

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

[tikay]

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

Well you may well be right Andrew, & I know you are a man of the highest moral standards, but if I can see my neighbours hole cards, & the rest of the table cannot, I have an unfair advantage on them. Fair on him, maybe, but unfair on everyone else. I don't sit easy with that.

[AndrewT]

Well you may well be right Andrew, & I know you are a man of the highest moral standards, but if I can see my neighbours hole cards, & the rest of the table cannot, I have an unfair advantage on them. Fair on him, maybe, but unfair on everyone else. I don't sit easy with that.

Poker is a game of luck - any game of luck is prone to giving unfair advantages to certain people through no volition of their own. You can't beat yourself up over it. In this particular instance you could just turn away/close your eyes when you see your opponent go for his cards, if you really wanted to level the playing field.

In your case it would be irrelevant anyway - you'd be most likely to misread your opponent's cards.

[Delboy]

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

Good Post Andrew

Its my understanding that the basic 'rule' is to 'protect your cards at all times' not 'if someone shows you their cards, don't look'.
I personally would let him know that I can see his cards and he should consider protetecting them more, but I would do it once. After that he's fair game!!!!!!

Tikay, If you were sat next to someone who muttered the names of their cards 'under their breath' when viewing them (a nervous thing), would you anounce it to the table? or would you consider it a tell to take advantage of?


I ask that cause it something I do on every hand I play online, and have to really concentrate to not do it live........

[Delboy]

I would like to state that if I needed to lean back on my seat to see his cards when he was being careless, I would go out of my way to lean forward....

[tikay]

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

Good Post Andrew

Its my understanding that the basic 'rule' is to 'protect your cards at all times' not 'if someone shows you their cards, don't look'.
I personally would let him know that I can see his cards and he should consider protetecting them more, but I would do it once. After that he's fair game!!!!!!

Tikay, If you were sat next to someone who muttered the names of their cards 'under their breath' when viewing them (a nervous thing), would you anounce it to the table? or would you consider it a tell to take advantage of?


I ask that cause it something I do on every hand I play online, and have to really concentrate to not do it live........

I really don't know what I'd do, to tell the truth.

But as my hearing is worse than my eyesight, I'd prob mis-hear him.....

[Delboy]

The advantage has been gained, but it has not been improperly gained - it's not as if you're picking up the other guy's cards and looking yourself. If this guy is a bad player anyway, then sitting on his left will also be an advantage in and of itself.

If you had been moved to this guy's left, would you complain to the TD and ask to be moved to a seat which was fairer on the other players?

In that case, two same villagers could sit next to each other & show each other their hands all night! It just seems wrong to me that anyone could have an advanatage over the rest of the table in that manner.

But in that case, the advantage would have been improperly gained, not inadvertently gained.

For my money, once a player has been warned about this, but continues to do it, then it's his loss - not letting your opponents see your cards is a basic skill of the game and, like any other basic skill which a player cannot master, is up for taking advantage of by opponents.

Yes, this is a flaw which only the players sitting next to you are able to take advantage of, which may be unfair to the other players but that's life.

What if a player had a tell in which his right eye would twitch when he was bluffing? If you were sat to the player's right, would you feel obliged to announce this to the player on his left as 'it's not fair that he can't see it'?

Good Post Andrew

Its my understanding that the basic 'rule' is to 'protect your cards at all times' not 'if someone shows you their cards, don't look'.
I personally would let him know that I can see his cards and he should consider protetecting them more, but I would do it once. After that he's fair game!!!!!!

Tikay, If you were sat next to someone who muttered the names of their cards 'under their breath' when viewing them (a nervous thing), would you anounce it to the table? or would you consider it a tell to take advantage of?


I ask that cause it something I do on every hand I play online, and have to really concentrate to not do it live........

I really don't know what I'd do, to tell the truth.

But as my hearing is worse than my eyesight, I'd prob mis-hear him.....

 

[Irishdenis]

Hi fella,
In my mind it is a simple matter. If I see a card that belongs to anyone I announce it. I tell the player I have seen their cards. He can then decide what he wants to do. usually the rest of the table want to know what the card is. If he does not play I announce the card to the table. If he plays he is playing knowing I have seen his card. In that instance I have done all I can and we continue. The problem is that it is amazing how many times players don't believe you have seen their cards. For me once I have told you I know one or more of your cards it is your decision.
Personally I feel it is wrong to play when you know a players cards unless you announce it to the table that you know.

[Dingdell]

Hi fella,
In my mind it is a simple matter. If I see a card that belongs to anyone I announce it. I tell the player I have seen their cards. He can then decide what he wants to do. usually the rest of the table want to know what the card is. If he does not play I announce the card to the table. If he plays he is playing knowing I have seen his card. In that instance I have done all I can and we continue. The problem is that it is amazing how many times players don't believe you have seen their cards. For me once I have told you I know one or more of your cards it is your decision.
Personally I feel it is wrong to play when you know a players cards unless you announce it to the table that you know.

I think that's a good approach - clear and open.