blonde poker forum

although i never played the tournament this weekend i followed it on the excellent live update thread,was i the only one who felt it became very crapshooty from a long way out?

would love feed back from those who participated.

wasn't the whole idea of these tournaments to give amateurs a taste of the structures offered in a pro tournament ?

personally i dont think a 40 min clock offers this as the whole tournament took less than 16 hours to complete.

i may b wrong here as i have no experience of going deep in an apat tourni so your views please

have also posted this on the apat site to see the variance in responses

The structure is designed specifically with our preferred time-window in mind. We aim to start at 2.30pm on Day One & finish around Midnight. Day Two is designed to start at 2.30pm & finish mid-to late evening. These goals have been met in every APAT Event.

Given our time window, the structure cannot be much better than it is. The average stack was between 18 & 25 BB's for much of the Final, though it was tighter at the beginning. The Final lasted, net of breaks, 5 hours, and as far as I know, the Members & players in general had no complaints about the structure.

As ever, we will keep it under review, but at this point in time, the Members seem to understand that it's the best it can be given the pre-condition of not finishing late on either Day One or Two. Whatever we do with the structure it will always be built around the early start & finishing times we have always had as a policy plank.

"wasn't the whole idea of these tournaments to give amateurs a taste of the structures offered in a pro tournament ?

We aimed to give the Members well-structured Tournaments within the aforementioned time-window. I have played in many "Pro Tourneys" with a far worse structure, but I've never played a £75 Tournament with a structure even half as good, because APAT apart, they have never been offered to players at that Buy-In Level. To get a 10k stack & a 40 minute clock you'd need to pay a lot more - and a Reg fee on top!

We shall however Review all these matters at the end of Season One, in the light of feedback from Members such as yourself. But it's tough to see how we can improve it without lengthening the playing hours, & we have no plans to do that. Some of the players were very tired by the end of play tonight, & I know Rich, Des & myself certainly were.

wasnt knocking your good selfs on this just seemed to me that late sat nite players were dropping like flies, i put this down to the structure being to fast.also 5 hours for a final imo is pretty short.

i may have been wrong there may have been other factors involved.


i agree for a £75 no juice tournament the structure is pretty good but surely by extending the clock to create a couple of extra hours a day would make it an excellent tournament and on par with many bigger buy in comps.

I have played APAT tourneys, and the structure, as TK says is better than alot of PRO tourneys.

Yes people drop like flies late on day one - reason being to double up and push for a money spot or go out.

20-25xBB for a Final is pretty good imo

It's a policy plank that our Tournys finish at "civilised" hours on both days, to allow our Members, who mostly have regular day jobs, to play our Events. It's therefore difficult to see how the Structure could be improved.

We actually think it's already an excellent Tournament, & Member Feedback on the whole confirms that.

Personally, I'l love all Tourneys to be 4 or 5 day jobbies, but life ain't like that, & we have to strike a balance that suits the majority. It has to be tailored to fit the available hours we have allocated.

Please note also that our Tourneys begin at 2.30pm sharp, so we already play as many hours as most 2 day "pro" Tourneys, especially when you consider we stick precisely to scheduled start times & break times & thus don't "lose" playing time.

Having played in two APAT tourney's- my personal opinion is the structure is great

I have played in a few higher buy in tournaments with less starting chips and a 45 min clock so to get 10k with 5 mins less for 75 quid all in is a bargain.

In any tournament, no matter what the structure you're gonna encouter conflection points where the chips start to fly in.  That's the nature of tournament poker.

I'm off to bed now after a very fruitless Sunday.

GG life!

"....very crapshooty from a long way out...."

With 20 players left (end of Day One) the average stack was 75,500, & Blinds were 2k-4k. Thus almost 19 x BB Average.

With 10 players left, average 151,000, the blinds were, I believe, 4k-8k. Again, that's 19 x BB.

During the Final the amount of BB v average stack fluctuated, but it was frequently at 25 x BB or more.

I guess it depends how you define "crapshooty". I've played in scores of Festival Finals where the average # of B's was far less!

blimey Tikay, we heard you the first time ;)

I played my first APAT event this weekend and personally i didnt think there was anything wrong with the structure - I knew about it before hand and knew roughly where i needed to be before each level began. I knew that after the dinner break the blinds were going to be at a level where short stacks only had one move so the plan was to be at least twice the starting chips. Those who decide to take it easy the first few levels will get caught out later in the day but those who keep their stack on a steady increase will constantly have more than 20 bb's which i did most of the way - i only fell below this by the time we got to 800/1600 with 28000k but even then i never felt that i was in too much trouble, there were still good opportunities to get chips from others.

Have a plan of strategy in mind before the tourney starts and the structure isn't a problem - the 6 outers on the river however is a different matter entirely!! :(

not for the live updater!!

not if live updater wants to experience Dublin!!

Since when is 20 players a long way out?

135 players made the first break at the end of level 4 (100/200) - Ave stack 11,200 (55 bb's)

The dinner break was taken at the end of level 7 (400/800) and i believe there were 90 runners still playing - Ave stack 16,777 (20 bb's)

it did stay pretty much this figure throughout the remainder of the tourney.

And it did - live pro tournaments are crapshoots at the end. As Tikay said, APAT did the best they could and achieved what they set out to do - can't see how it could be improved.

In his PRO thread for Friday's $300 Blonde double-stack freezeout in which he finalled, Flushy commented on the great structure. With 8 players left the average stack was nearly 30BBs. How high a buy-in in a live event would you have to go to guarantee an average 30BB stack at a final table?

I bet it's a lot - not even WPT final tables get that.

andrew i dont understand the relevance of your last 2 paragraphs comparing a $300 online event with an apat tournament?

well looks as though the vibes i was getting reading the update thread regards the speed of the tournament were wrong. all that played were satisfied with the structure , a fantastic achievement in itself and one that must be commended. well done guys  :)up


i suppose the only way for me to find out myself is to enter the next apat event then manage to go deep enough to find out how it feels for myself.

not much chance of that as in the only apat event i played in cardiff i never made the dinner break! thanks to a series of big hands getting beat and the boking of kinboshi!!!!

I was highlighting the structure that you can get in a £150 online event. A live £1000+ tournament would be more crapshooty. Therefore complaining that a £75 tournament gets a bit crapshooty seems to be not entirely fair.

i wasnt complaining,  wasn't playing so could hardly complain about something i never participated in. was just merely stating an observation (whether right or wrong)

comparing a online online tournament with an offline tournament is a tad unfair as well as they are two completely different beasts as you well know.

I was comparing them to show how they are different, not how they are similar.

Live tournaments = crapshoots. Online tournaments = capable of much better structures.

APAT = live tournament, therefore crapshoot.

Compared to other live tournaments, I think APAT compared very favourably. When live players complain (other players, not you :)) that a tournament has 'become a crapshoot' their expectations of what is achievable are, on the whole, unrealistic.

not unrealistic in this case as plenty of extra time could be used to combat it.

but as tikay stated the aim of apat is to finish early so they provide the best structure they can in the time frame allowed.

they meet the requirements they set out to achieve that is a challenge in itself.

I think the structure was excellent.

we could argue all day about the benefit of having a 150/300 level instead of a 75/150, but at the end of the day the structure that was in place encouraged poker to be played, and not just chip chucking all-in fest. From a personal point of view, the first time I uttered the words "all in" was on day 2, just before the final table.

Consider the fact that Brendan at the final table at one point was down to around 30K chips, and managed with some paitence to wait on the monster hands that got him out of trouble. That doesnt sound too crapshooty does it ?

not unrealistic in this case as plenty of extra time could be used to combat it.

Well we are not prepared to increase the "budgeted" playing time beyond what we've stated, so it's not possible.

but as tikay stated the aim of apat is to finish early so they provide the best structure they can in the time frame allowed

That's our view, too.

Let me explain how the decision making process works. As to "front of shop" APAT Matters, the ideas, debates & decisions involve Des, Tighty, & myself.

My Role, as Chairman (Year One) is to represent the Members views & wishes, & I do that as well as I am able, & would, if need be, fight to the death to preserve them.

It was Des's original idea to keep the playing hours "civilised" for folks who are not used to staying up all night playing poker. I agree with that 100%, & I believe our Members are happy with that.

So, given that, we then had to design a structure which "fitted" & that we have done, pretty well I think. I believe it's as near perfect as we can get it, all things considered.

As Chairman, (representing the Members) I could not be happier with the way the Events have panned out in terms of Structure & playability, & yesterday was as good as it gets - a great Tourney, lots of play, especially at the sharp end, & everyone had a ball.

We will contine to listen to Member feedback as to structures, & may tweak them if need be. But I can't see us ever changing the overall timeframe within which we structure our Tourneys, at least, not during my tenure.

Really? That would be cool.

What would your preferred weapon be in case of such a duel?

Postillions, one red, one black.

i did comment at end of play on day 1 of the first APAT event that it seemed craphooty, few reasons for this

1) it was the first APAT event and it was a couple of levels in before people started getting bust
2) not as many runners as other events so not as many chips in play
3) i like to complain

but there is no way round this in the time offered to complete the comp other that to reduce the number of runners and i think everyone is hoping the number of runners will go up rather than down which will mean that the clock will have to be shorten to get it finished in time

on the structure though it would be great if we had time to fit in a 75/150 and a 150/300 level but seeing as there isnt time and we can only fit in 1 i think it would be better if we skipped the 75/150 level and had a 150/300 level it wong make much difference to the comp but make it feel more relaxing as the blinds start to bite

I agree with Iron on this one, i'd rather have a 150/300 than a 75/150 but that is only a minor quibble.
In the 2 events i've played it really only gets crapshooty in levels 8 & 9 when you lose more than 40 players & then it settles down but you have to start losing players at some point & how long do want to give the short stacks before they make a move?

Well done guys on another well run comp.

It's a great structure, and does allow lots of play , think it has a great balance that gets the tournie moving while still giving lots of play. Although I do admit the jump from 100/200 to 200/400 annoys me in ANY tournie, as its so steep!

We will gladly take a look at that part of the structure. But if we "give" there, we'll have to "take" from somewhere else. It's a balance thing. Right now, the majority of the APAT Members seem happy with the "as is" structure judging from the feedback we are getting. Really, we want to finsh mid-to late Evening on Day Two, come what may.

Might not be possible, but could the tournaments not start 40 minutes earlier, or finish 40 minutes later on Day 1?  That would give the time for the additional level.  Hardly the end of the world not having the 150/300, but it would certainly be the cherry on the icing of the cake.

Yes, I guess that's possible. An earlier start time is logistically awkward, as we have to get everyone into a quite often "strange" Venue, with all the time it takes to become a Member, & so thats quite "tight" in UK Licensed Venues, who rarely open pre-Noon.

Also, playing from 2.30 until Midnight-ish seems, to me, quite long enough for those not used to deep-stacked two day Tourneys. Msny of ouor Members are, well, "mature", if you get my drift.

A good point though, & we'll certainly take a good look at it.

As was suggested earlier if you need to give something up then lose the 75/150.

Without exception the lack of 150/300 is the only (constructive) criticism I have seen or heard about the structure.

You know it makes sense  ;)